Mini roundabouts! Whose right of way? Diagram included!

[Rocketlady]

Not my finest artwork, but if vehicle A is is indicating to turn to their right (left in pic!) and vehicle B wants to go straight on, whose right of way is it?

Here’s a real enigma, not about roundabouts, which the Highway Code does not explain at all: the Highway Code certainly does not have all the answers. I had this happen on several driving lessons, through no fault of mine, or my pupil. Answers on a postcard, please!

You are turning right at lights, and at the green, you have to wait in the junction for about twenty oncoming cars. Their lights change to red, and several oncoming cars disobey the red light. By the time you can move, the pedestrian lights are well on green, while you’re still in the junction, or worse, the lights for the other road are well on green, and the cars are already thundering around you. What does the Highway Code tell you then? (Use common sense.)

Well I'd stay put until it's safe to get out of the way of oncoming traffic, red light or no red light.

No idea if that's the correct answer!

In answer to pp upthread about road markings. It seems the plot thickens! With A and B having double white lines and C having single thick white blocks. Attaching updated diagram!

I'll admit I had to look up what they mean (screenshot also attached, no idea why marked as sensitive 😁) and slightly more confused again with both A and B having to give way to each other, and only C having to give way to the right!

Mighty now that's an interesting take on it! Except, correct me if I'm wrong, the HC actually says "approaching the roundabout, give way to the right." We all agree on that. But A is not on B's right on the approach, no more than B is to A's right. By the time A wants to turn, each car is to the right of the other (or, very technically, if you want, B is ahead of A on a roundabout so small you can't really tell).
it is a fact that this would not arise on a big roundabout because it would be clearer on a big roundabout that A is behind B before A reaches its exit. The problem only comes up because it's a mini roundabout.
What the HC calls multiple roundabouts are actually totally straightforward if you're used to normal (big) roundabouts (should you ever find yourself in the Magic Roundabout in Hemel Hempstead the rule about giving way to the right functions perfectly, no confusion whatever). Gyratories (like Vauxhall, Hammersmith) are a whole nother nightmare to explain. Yet somehow we all survive.
I appear to be nerding out about this 🤣

Scart, to your question about getting stranded turning right on a normal intersection -- what the law says is that you must not advance beyond the stop line till you can definitely clear the intersection before the light changes. But I live in London, where you might never get to turn right in that case. I tell those who enquire: even where there is a red light camera, there is generally enough of a delay to let the first right-turner through no matter how many cars race from onwards. There is PROBABLY enough time for two cars to turn right before the camera gets you. There is probably not enough time for a third car to make it if the oncomers are aggressive. So on the whole don't be more than the second car waiting to turn unless you know a turn signal is going to come up. But above all, remember, this kind of near-head-on collision with traffic is the most dangerous kind because from straight ahead or to your right you risk a near-head-on. Do not enter the intersection to turn if you don't feel safe. And try not to turn your steering wheel ahead of time: if you are rear-ended, you will be knocked into a head-on collision with oncoming and that is flat-out the worst collision of all.

You aren't picturing this as a circle @itsallsohard . If you picture a car traveling around a circle in a clockwise direction you should understand why it's A, it also doesn't matter if A is coming from the south and turning east or north and turning west. If A is on the circle by the time they reach the junction B is at then B is straight ahead of them but A is to the right of B. This rule applies and works whether it's a mini roundabout or a roundabout that's got a diameter of a mile. It's worth thinking about the roundabout as a separate one way road, you wouldn't pull onto a road if you were going to get in someone else's way.

No. Baroness, sorry, you're still not seeing it. It's a circle. At entry, A is to the right of B clockwise and B is to the right of A clockwise because 12 (thinking in terms of clocks) is not the top of the diagram, nor is it north or south. It's entirely relational. A and B are opposite each other, neither is right or left of the other clockwise. It entirely depends on where you think 12 lies on the "clock" of OPs diagram.

@itsallsohard

You’re missing the third entrance to the roundabout. Each entrance to the roundabout is to the left of one entrance and to the right of another. You need to focus on the one entrance that is literally to your right. That’s what you give way to on a roundabout.

We must be reading from different sources! The .gov website says the following;

Rule 185
When reaching the roundabout you should

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code

If I were to go to Vauxhall, I would take a train 😂

I’m a new driver and wish I hadn’t read this thread. I’m very confused now

This is how I had understood it.

But I am now somewhat peturbed by the road markings. The double white lines for A and B mean they have to give way to traffic on the major road (which is where A and B are, C is the minor road).

C has direct instructions to give way to the Right.

Yes, I'm very sorry about this. We need a third driving instructor for a final decision!

Joking aside, @itsallsohard I think your idea to raise the general confusion over this to a higher level is a good one!

But the OP drew a diagram giving relative positions. It's on the very first page.

OK, Rocket, interestingly, as you say, the road markings don't really change the picture in this case, what does change things is the introduction of the third car, C. Which way they are signalling to exit is totally irrelevant in all cases, for those of you still confused: it's not where you plan to exit, it's where you enter that matters. In Rocket's new picture, suddenly priorities are clear: B is to the right of C, and C is to the right of A, so A enters last of the three.

Hopspot the third entrance is irrelevant if no car is in it, just as the lack of a fourth entrance is irrelevant.

I do agree that if there is a whole queue behind B or C people are about to get both confused and annoyed, because no one will be clear on which car arrived before which other. Which is why, as your friendly driving instructor, I would remind you: this is not a race. Please do not insist on taking priority where an accident might occur. Just, like, live with one another. (Did I mention I've been driving, professionally, in London for 40 years?)

What part of the country are you an instructor?

my kids are nearing 17 and I hope they stay well away from you! This is scary that an actual instructor thinks this.

Wtf

Sarah her diagram did indeed show relative positions -- directly opposite one another. Not right or left of each other at all.

@Rocketlady tbf though I think I have hesitated as driver A a few times thinking that B is to my right but not my immediate right so to speak. I think it’s more of an issue at very small mini roundabouts. Considering texting my old instructor 🤣

Oh my god!

The lack of third entrance isn’t irrelevant. It’s how you work out who is to the right and left of you. I don’t pull up to a roundabout with a vehicle to my right and two lanes to my left free and therefore accept I’m to that vehicle’s right.

She's in London. It explains EVERYTHING about Cycling Mikey's videos of some London drivers being utterly batshit and incompetent. I'd been wondering how on earth they'd all learned to drive.

Go and look at it again.

hopspot, but if you pull up to a roundabout with no vehicle to your right and two vehicles to your left you do get that you go first, right? It's not the entrances, it's where the actual cars are! And tbf, I am quite certain this is in fact what you do drive like, we're all just getting tired.

That’s right. As I’m to their right.

merry sometimes it's the other person who has done it wrong, technically, but on the whole I agree: we should all just pay attention in the first place. Because the moral of this whole thread is that no one understands the rules quite like anyone else, especially in the heat of the moment, especially if they are tired, or in a rush, or angry, or jet-lagged, or .. god help us.

Honestly, I'm a nerd enough to argue with all of you who don't see my basic point, which was (to go back to OP) that A must wait for B to pass before turning right off the roundabout. But really my point is this: I drive in London. I teach in London. It is chaos, and this chaos is coming for those of you outside London. Do not follow the rules to the death: be calm and considerate. Even in rush hour, you will lose no significant time, and the life you save may be your own.