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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/08/2025 20:42

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way.

Did you used to think she was guilty and now you don’t, or you aren’t sure? What changed your mind?

Also vice versa: did you used to think she was not guilty but then changed your mind to guilty? What convinced you?

The reason I’m using the term ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’ is because courts don’t prove innocence. Not guilty is a legal conclusion about whether or not the state met its burden of proof.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 08:59

Glowingup · 12/08/2025 06:36

Which would be fine if you were trying to prove that she was guilty solely on the basis that she was there for an unusually high number of deaths. Which nobody is and the prosecution never did. They are basing it on the suspicious circumstances and LL’s behaviour around the deaths. You know like falsifying medical records and stuff to make it look like she wasn’t there.
Do you think the police investigated the deaths of every GP in Manchester as well as Harold Shipman, seeing as we can’t draw inferences from his high death rate?

Nobody thought the events suspicious at the time. That's why they had to do a search later.

I need to correct one thing I said - they searched for cullrapses near Lucy Letby's name - not even the "unexpected".

Why hadn't they been suspicious about those events earlier, and why weren't they looking at similar events whoever was on duty?

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 09:02

I am convinced of her guilt.

So logically you'd be 100% in favour of a few statisticians and doctors looking over the evidence and ensuring it all stacks up, thus proving you right?

PinkTonic · 12/08/2025 09:04

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 08:47

I am convinced of her guilt. Lucy Letby had to be removed before more babies suffered. It took a lot of effort to get her off the ward. And people put their careers at risk voicing their suspicions when management tried to silence them. The police should have been called in earlier. But if folk think she's innocent and the evidence doesn't add up let them get on with it.

You never say what convinces you of her guilt still, in the face of the legitimate challenges raised. How do you rationalise the doubts and questions about what was presented to the jury? Do you read any of the articles and if so how do you interpret them so that not the slightest doubt creeps into your mind? Your responses do appear to be very emotional rather than fact based, so I’m genuinely interested in what information you are being convinced by at this point.

Mirabai · 12/08/2025 09:11

@Kittybythelighthouse The below from Peter Elston (a statistician) on X. There’s really no excuse for that ‘data’ having been presented as it was on Panorama tonight. It’s so irresponsible and they must know that by now.

Indeed. But at this point C & M are using BBC as propaganda platform to defend their careers.

Had they stuck to journalistic balance and detachment, and not tried to make a fast buck out of the case with their rushed book, their careers would not hinge on the outcome of the case.

If the case were to be quashed on appeal, I would expect an enquiry within the BBC as to how two personalities were allowed to hijack the narrative and use a flagship programme for their own agenda. It falls far short of responsible reporting and the balance and professionalism one might expect from a public service broadcaster.

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 09:11

PinkTonic · 12/08/2025 09:04

You never say what convinces you of her guilt still, in the face of the legitimate challenges raised. How do you rationalise the doubts and questions about what was presented to the jury? Do you read any of the articles and if so how do you interpret them so that not the slightest doubt creeps into your mind? Your responses do appear to be very emotional rather than fact based, so I’m genuinely interested in what information you are being convinced by at this point.

I've answered these questions in previous posts. It's my opinion.

Imperativvv · 12/08/2025 09:18

Realistically its inevitable that in a case as big as this, some people would continue to believe in LLs guilt even if all convictions were quashed. Particularly as it's unlikely anyone else would be convicted instead. I don't think that's of particular importance myself, it's just a function of the way this case has played out.

Tessisme · 12/08/2025 09:21

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 08:47

I am convinced of her guilt. Lucy Letby had to be removed before more babies suffered. It took a lot of effort to get her off the ward. And people put their careers at risk voicing their suspicions when management tried to silence them. The police should have been called in earlier. But if folk think she's innocent and the evidence doesn't add up let them get on with it.

You’re obviously entitled to be convinced of her guilt. My issue is with those who suggest that people are ‘defending a guilty woman’. For a start, they are not defending her. They are questioning the evidence. And secondly, they are starting from a position that the question of her guilt is up for discussion and that she might not be guilty. There’s nothing wrong with questioning something. If nobody had questioned the evidence in the cases of the Guildford Four or the Birmingham Six, they would have rotted in jail. I’m in NI and we were ALL discussing those cases at the time, even without the mass reach of social media. People do. Especially when there’s the remotest possibility that someone has been shafted.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 09:57

Imperativvv · 12/08/2025 08:58

Yeah, regardless of whether LL is a killer or not, we know that our courts heard an expert witness completely misunderstand a piece of evidence to the extent that the author of the research paper felt compelled to publicly refute it after the trial. That is a very bad thing.

Even if that didn't lead to a miscarriage of justice here, the system clearly has the potential to deliver one, and knowledge of that undermines public confidence. It has to be changed. We need to seriously consider one court appointed expert rather than the adversarial model, and specialist juries when evidence is likely to be complex and technical.

The scary part is that it wasn’t just Evans. There were 6 total expert prosecution witnesses in the court who made reports based on the reports from Evans. The judiciary, who I’ve said before are experienced and knowledgeable in the law, only the law, and certainly not in medicine, quite foolishly call this process ‘peer review’. Judges have spent their lives focused on the law. They usually don’t have even a science A Level. They need to engage humility and acknowledge where they are not experts. This is a massive part of the problem.

This was not a formal, scientific peer review process of the kind used in medical research, nor was it anything like a double-blind independent evaluation, which incidentally Lee’s expert panel was.

Dr Sandie Bohin and the others reviewed Dr Dewi Evans’s reports, not the raw data in its original form. They did not have full, independent access to all original pathology reports, medical notes, or complete clinical records. They knew Evans’s conclusions before reviewing, so their task was effectively to comment on his reasoning rather than independently evaluate the evidence from scratch. There was no blinding to case identities or outcomes.

None of the experts - including Evans - ever saw or examined the babies involved. They relied entirely on retrospective paper/electronic records, years after the events. It was one prosecution-instructed expert reviewing another prosecution-instructed expert’s work. It was not an impartial academic peer review. Using the term “peer review” in court gives an impression of academic rigour that wasn’t actually there. They were also heavily financially motivated to agree with each other.

Truly independent, court-directed experts and direct evidence review, rather than having prosecution-instructed experts “peer review” each other’s conclusions, would be preferable.

There are several different ways that courts in other countries handle experts evidence. Technically expert witnesses work for the courts, but in practice they are heavily motivated (by money) to produce the goods that the side who hired them want.

Dr Evans was paid hundreds of thousands and that’s a conservative estimate. He’s on record bragging about having ‘never lost a case’ which is confirmation that he is not independent and working for the court. He has also bragged about “keeping his daughter in horses and his son in cars”.

Dr Hammond has written about a process called ‘hot tubbing’ - which is a term that conjures all kinds of unpleasant images 😳 - but sounds like a better way for the jury to hear evidence. Hot tubbing is where both sides’ experts appear in court together, answer the same questions from the judge, and respond to each other in real time. I’m not sure that the best way, I lean more towards an expert panel system, where a panel of carefully selected experts discuss evidence collectively, record any disagreements, and ensure that no single interpretation dominates unchecked. There are other options too, none of them perfect because perfection seldom exists in medicine.

The problem is that courts and juries like certainty, but medicine is rarely this clear cut. Regardless of the judiciaries discomfort - public liberty and safety is more important than judicial egos - the system has to change in order to avoid future MoJ.

OP posts:
OpheliaWasntMad · 12/08/2025 10:00

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 09:57

The scary part is that it wasn’t just Evans. There were 6 total expert prosecution witnesses in the court who made reports based on the reports from Evans. The judiciary, who I’ve said before are experienced and knowledgeable in the law, only the law, and certainly not in medicine, quite foolishly call this process ‘peer review’. Judges have spent their lives focused on the law. They usually don’t have even a science A Level. They need to engage humility and acknowledge where they are not experts. This is a massive part of the problem.

This was not a formal, scientific peer review process of the kind used in medical research, nor was it anything like a double-blind independent evaluation, which incidentally Lee’s expert panel was.

Dr Sandie Bohin and the others reviewed Dr Dewi Evans’s reports, not the raw data in its original form. They did not have full, independent access to all original pathology reports, medical notes, or complete clinical records. They knew Evans’s conclusions before reviewing, so their task was effectively to comment on his reasoning rather than independently evaluate the evidence from scratch. There was no blinding to case identities or outcomes.

None of the experts - including Evans - ever saw or examined the babies involved. They relied entirely on retrospective paper/electronic records, years after the events. It was one prosecution-instructed expert reviewing another prosecution-instructed expert’s work. It was not an impartial academic peer review. Using the term “peer review” in court gives an impression of academic rigour that wasn’t actually there. They were also heavily financially motivated to agree with each other.

Truly independent, court-directed experts and direct evidence review, rather than having prosecution-instructed experts “peer review” each other’s conclusions, would be preferable.

There are several different ways that courts in other countries handle experts evidence. Technically expert witnesses work for the courts, but in practice they are heavily motivated (by money) to produce the goods that the side who hired them want.

Dr Evans was paid hundreds of thousands and that’s a conservative estimate. He’s on record bragging about having ‘never lost a case’ which is confirmation that he is not independent and working for the court. He has also bragged about “keeping his daughter in horses and his son in cars”.

Dr Hammond has written about a process called ‘hot tubbing’ - which is a term that conjures all kinds of unpleasant images 😳 - but sounds like a better way for the jury to hear evidence. Hot tubbing is where both sides’ experts appear in court together, answer the same questions from the judge, and respond to each other in real time. I’m not sure that the best way, I lean more towards an expert panel system, where a panel of carefully selected experts discuss evidence collectively, record any disagreements, and ensure that no single interpretation dominates unchecked. There are other options too, none of them perfect because perfection seldom exists in medicine.

The problem is that courts and juries like certainty, but medicine is rarely this clear cut. Regardless of the judiciaries discomfort - public liberty and safety is more important than judicial egos - the system has to change in order to avoid future MoJ.

Thank you. You’ve been really informative and clear on here

PinkTonic · 12/08/2025 10:02

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 09:11

I've answered these questions in previous posts. It's my opinion.

You really haven’t. Generally, intelligent people who hold firm opinions are able to articulate the basis for those opinions. Informed opinions tend to hold more weight and be thought more credible than those which rely on incorrect information or appear to be emotional responses or gut feelings.

Catpuss66 · 12/08/2025 10:21

Oftenaddled · 11/08/2025 20:39

Watching Panorama now - I don't mean this as a cheap shot, but I think Dewi Evans is not quite in his right mind. Saying it doesn't matter how the babies were killed! And he comes across as an angry bully.

Just watching it now his face when he said ‘ they don’t know as much as they think they do’ the look on his face was of pure comtempt & arrogance. That renowned professors from around the world know more than him a 10yr retired paed with a will to make a name from himself & win his face.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 10:26

OpheliaWasntMad · 12/08/2025 10:00

Thank you. You’ve been really informative and clear on here

Thank you! I think it’s really important stuff, so I do take time over it. I appreciate you saying that.

OP posts:
teksquad · 12/08/2025 10:37

Isnt it possible that she was playing fast and loose with procedures due to her baby saviour complex thing and so might not have meant to kill them, but given many were on a knife edge anyway, that her care led to deaths, or pushed them over the edge because eg she didn't call a doctor in a timely fashion because she wanted to be the one to bring them back etc. So manslaughter, I guess.

My feeling is that complete innocence is unlikely but poor practice or some sort of risk taking associated with a saviour complex, in a unit that was struggling and that possibly had lots of other poor practice going on, might have led to cases where babies died where they might have made it with different care. Is that serial killer murder though? I am unsure.

Clearly there are huge issues with the trial, the misues of statistics and the expert witness system though, either way.

The facebook thing is worrying! I get so many 'people you may know' recomemdation by the Facebook algorithm and I often click on them to try and work out who they are and who our mutual connection are in bored momemts to try and work out why Facebook thinks I know them - presumably all of those would sbow in my history as me looking up lots of people, maybe inappropriately.

PinkTonic · 12/08/2025 10:45

teksquad · 12/08/2025 10:37

Isnt it possible that she was playing fast and loose with procedures due to her baby saviour complex thing and so might not have meant to kill them, but given many were on a knife edge anyway, that her care led to deaths, or pushed them over the edge because eg she didn't call a doctor in a timely fashion because she wanted to be the one to bring them back etc. So manslaughter, I guess.

My feeling is that complete innocence is unlikely but poor practice or some sort of risk taking associated with a saviour complex, in a unit that was struggling and that possibly had lots of other poor practice going on, might have led to cases where babies died where they might have made it with different care. Is that serial killer murder though? I am unsure.

Clearly there are huge issues with the trial, the misues of statistics and the expert witness system though, either way.

The facebook thing is worrying! I get so many 'people you may know' recomemdation by the Facebook algorithm and I often click on them to try and work out who they are and who our mutual connection are in bored momemts to try and work out why Facebook thinks I know them - presumably all of those would sbow in my history as me looking up lots of people, maybe inappropriately.

What baby saviour complex thing?

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 10:45

Isnt it possible that she was playing fast and loose with procedures

Seems unlikely to me. Seems more likely she was a permie experienced Nurse in a department full of agency temps and therefore got all the difficult cases. She might also have been more contentious at logging things like tube dislodgements - may even the agency staff didn't bother writing them up.

I've seen agency and full time staff working on a ward and that's all totally consistent t with what I saw.

So I think her being a good nurse is far more likely to explain deaths clustering around her than her being a crap nurse. But who knows.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 10:46

Mirabai · 12/08/2025 09:11

@Kittybythelighthouse The below from Peter Elston (a statistician) on X. There’s really no excuse for that ‘data’ having been presented as it was on Panorama tonight. It’s so irresponsible and they must know that by now.

Indeed. But at this point C & M are using BBC as propaganda platform to defend their careers.

Had they stuck to journalistic balance and detachment, and not tried to make a fast buck out of the case with their rushed book, their careers would not hinge on the outcome of the case.

If the case were to be quashed on appeal, I would expect an enquiry within the BBC as to how two personalities were allowed to hijack the narrative and use a flagship programme for their own agenda. It falls far short of responsible reporting and the balance and professionalism one might expect from a public service broadcaster.

This is an important issue, which this case has brought to the fore, but which is often overlooked and I completely agree. The book was rushed out so quickly after the reporting bans lifted, it was clear they hadn’t anticipated the avalanche of expert doubts that would come in before it was published. Moritz had already thoroughly lost her head to the prosecution’s spin by then, after as she has said ‘months in the courtroom looking into the whites of her eyes’ 🙄

How is this not a blatant conflict of interest? How can their reporting be balanced when they’ve got a book to shill that is heavily invested in pushing guilt? Thats our licence money paying for our justice system and NHS to go unchecked here just so M&C can line their pockets?! Nah. If anyone else wants to complain you may do so here:

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 10:52

PinkTonic · 12/08/2025 10:02

You really haven’t. Generally, intelligent people who hold firm opinions are able to articulate the basis for those opinions. Informed opinions tend to hold more weight and be thought more credible than those which rely on incorrect information or appear to be emotional responses or gut feelings.

Lucy Letby is a convicted serial killer. She had a 10 month trial. The correct verdict was reached. Carry on arguing by all means. And implying people who don't agree with you are thick. The last argument of the desperate.

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 11:04

teksquad · 12/08/2025 10:37

Isnt it possible that she was playing fast and loose with procedures due to her baby saviour complex thing and so might not have meant to kill them, but given many were on a knife edge anyway, that her care led to deaths, or pushed them over the edge because eg she didn't call a doctor in a timely fashion because she wanted to be the one to bring them back etc. So manslaughter, I guess.

My feeling is that complete innocence is unlikely but poor practice or some sort of risk taking associated with a saviour complex, in a unit that was struggling and that possibly had lots of other poor practice going on, might have led to cases where babies died where they might have made it with different care. Is that serial killer murder though? I am unsure.

Clearly there are huge issues with the trial, the misues of statistics and the expert witness system though, either way.

The facebook thing is worrying! I get so many 'people you may know' recomemdation by the Facebook algorithm and I often click on them to try and work out who they are and who our mutual connection are in bored momemts to try and work out why Facebook thinks I know them - presumably all of those would sbow in my history as me looking up lots of people, maybe inappropriately.

The hospital did nursing reviews on all nine children who died between June 2015 and January 2016. Letby's accused of killing five of them. They found no problems with her practice.

She wasn't even the designated nurse for three of these five children, so she wasn't the one doing procedures on them.

I know it can be hard to believe it's entirely coincidence that she got so many hard cases. I do think it was coincidence, but I think the fact that she was willing to volunteer to work nights on the ICU made a big difference. There were at least two of those five children who suffered because junior doctors couldn't manage procedures or got things wrong. During the day, consultants were five minutes away but at night up to half an hour. Most babies died at night or after failings on the night shift, whether Letby was accused of killing them or not.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 11:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Catpuss66 · 12/08/2025 11:16

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 00:18

The sources do check out - linked in that post - about Letby working about 50 shifts at Liverpool.

Not sure of your point, she worked 50 shifts &? Because they are correct about the shifts ( which isn’t in-depth investigative work) that she worked 50 shifts we should except their stats with no questions?

teksquad · 12/08/2025 11:19

No, I completely get that, as PP said, experienced, capable permanent staff nurse vs agency makes sense she would get clusters of the most fragile babies, who it sounds like shouldn't even have been at that hospital so surely their care was already compromised by the NHS before LL even enocuntered them. It sounds callous to say but those babies presumably 'could have gone either way' at that point anyway, irrespective of who cared for them. Isn't that the nature of NICUs caring for extremely premature babies?

Also no idea if she had a saviour complex or not, just referring to what a PP who said they were a psychologist referenced earlier, and it has been mentioned afew times over the years. Stuff about her background, she was saved by a nurse or whatever family lore. I did think it was a little odd on the ITV documentuary that her friend that she trained with said she knew from sixth form that she was going to do Nursing and only ever wanted to specialise in NICU looking after premature babies. But then nobody thinks its odd all the 1000s of med school applicantions from 17y olds saying I want to be an oncologist because my dad died of cancer or I want to be a doctor to help people because doctors saved my life when I was 4 etc I suppose.

So basically I am unsure and dont know whether she is entirely guilty, or entirely innocent or something in between. I find it strange how some people are 100% convinced one way or the other though. I really dont see how you can be given the trial and the quality of the evidence that was used, unless you were there maybe.

SteakBakesAndHotTakes · 12/08/2025 11:22

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 10:52

Lucy Letby is a convicted serial killer. She had a 10 month trial. The correct verdict was reached. Carry on arguing by all means. And implying people who don't agree with you are thick. The last argument of the desperate.

But numerous world-renowned medical experts and neonatologists, including the author the paper that the prosecution misunderstood, have argued that the correct verdict was not reached and that there is no evidence for murder at all. What makes you confident that the correct verdict was reached in the absence of any evidence? No one who is concerned about the unsafe conviction is relying on personal attacks - the only one doing that is you.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 11:23

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 08:59

Nobody thought the events suspicious at the time. That's why they had to do a search later.

I need to correct one thing I said - they searched for cullrapses near Lucy Letby's name - not even the "unexpected".

Why hadn't they been suspicious about those events earlier, and why weren't they looking at similar events whoever was on duty?

How anyone sees that shift rota that shows only nurses and doesn’t think “where are the doctors?” is beyond me, Are only nurses capable of murder?!

OP posts:
EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 11:26

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 11:23

How anyone sees that shift rota that shows only nurses and doesn’t think “where are the doctors?” is beyond me, Are only nurses capable of murder?!

Or Janitors, or porters, or receptionists.

The whole case was based on deciding Letby was a murderer and working back from there.

Maybe (by fluke) they got it right. Maybe they didn't. It needs to he checked.

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 11:29

SteakBakesAndHotTakes · 12/08/2025 11:22

But numerous world-renowned medical experts and neonatologists, including the author the paper that the prosecution misunderstood, have argued that the correct verdict was not reached and that there is no evidence for murder at all. What makes you confident that the correct verdict was reached in the absence of any evidence? No one who is concerned about the unsafe conviction is relying on personal attacks - the only one doing that is you.

You are the one doing the personal attacks not me.

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