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Lucy Letby: have you changed your mind?

1000 replies

Kittybythelighthouse · 09/08/2025 20:42

I’ve been sensing a shift in opinions on the Lucy Letby case and I’m interested in hearing from people who have changed their mind either way.

Did you used to think she was guilty and now you don’t, or you aren’t sure? What changed your mind?

Also vice versa: did you used to think she was not guilty but then changed your mind to guilty? What convinced you?

The reason I’m using the term ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’ is because courts don’t prove innocence. Not guilty is a legal conclusion about whether or not the state met its burden of proof.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Flowercakes · 12/08/2025 00:45

nomas · 11/08/2025 06:57

How is it ironic? This poster is referring to an actual guilty verdict, so it’s not the same thing.

The reference to social media, I would have thought that was obvious.

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 00:57

CheeseNPickle3 · 12/08/2025 00:40

That makes much more sense - I've just read the bit where the 1% is possibly not even based on recorded data but a target that they were aiming for.

Yes. They looked for suspicious (but unnoticed at the time) events at Liverpool by auditing Letby's shifts, but apparently nobody else's.

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 01:00

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 00:57

Yes. They looked for suspicious (but unnoticed at the time) events at Liverpool by auditing Letby's shifts, but apparently nobody else's.

Which is incidentally what they did in COCH too.

OP posts:
Insanityisnotastrategy · 12/08/2025 01:06

Oftenaddled · 11/08/2025 23:57

The thing is that Thirlwall asked for a full record of any complaints against Letby and this wasn't published.

Maybe it was exaggerated. Maybe it was another nurse. Maybe it was a complaint as in having a word with a senior on the ward, not a formal complaint. We just can't tell. It's certainly far from proved.

It's odd that it didn't come out at Thirlwall but having watched the snippet of interview with that parent, she's very clear that it was Lucy.

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 01:10

Insanityisnotastrategy · 12/08/2025 01:06

It's odd that it didn't come out at Thirlwall but having watched the snippet of interview with that parent, she's very clear that it was Lucy.

I'd say the most likely explanation is that it wasn't an official complaint and there's no record, if it was Letby.

Some people think of talking to a manager or a receptionist or a headteacher etc as putting in a complaint.

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 01:12

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 01:00

Which is incidentally what they did in COCH too.

The bit at Thirlwall where they described searching their digital records for the words "unexpected" and "collapse" near the words "Lucy Letby" was certainly an eye-opener!

Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 01:12

Insanityisnotastrategy · 12/08/2025 01:06

It's odd that it didn't come out at Thirlwall but having watched the snippet of interview with that parent, she's very clear that it was Lucy.

Either way this is not proof of murder.Many people have bad things to say about someone as publicly monstered as LL was at the time. None of it matters though if there were no murders.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 01:13

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 01:12

The bit at Thirlwall where they described searching their digital records for the words "unexpected" and "collapse" near the words "Lucy Letby" was certainly an eye-opener!

Edited

Every day I learn something astonishing about this case. It’s unbelievable.

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 12/08/2025 01:58

The below from Peter Elston (a statistician) on X. There’s really no excuse for that ‘data’ having been presented as it was on Panorama tonight. It’s so irresponsible and they must know that by now.

“The mention in BBC’s Panorama of tube dislodgement statistics at Liverpool Women’s Hospital (LWH) when Lucy Letby worked there was misleading at best. The first public reference to the statistics came from Richard Baker KC's opening remarks at Thirlwall, though it was interesting that having mentioned them in his opening, completely uncorroborated, he made no further mention of them. In fact, nobody did. A letter was written by four experts (two consultant neonatologists including Dr Svilena Dimitrova, one consultant anaesthetist, and me) to LJ Thirlwall at the time complaining about Baker's remarks. The body of the letter is appended below. Sarah Knapton wrote about the letter an article in The Telegraph here -. archive.is/Nw0b0. Judith Moritz would have known about the letter but made no mention of it in today's Panorama. Poor journalism really, on top of everything else. Needless to say, LJ Thirlwall never replied to the letter.

This misleading statement was picked up by the media, and it is highly possible that by citing in articles the two numbers in the above without the necessary further explanation, distress has been caused to concerned parties. We do not find the assertion made above credible and are writing to express our deep concerns over the figures presented to the Thirlwall Inquiry with regards to extubation rates, particularly the claims about 1% and 40% accidental extubation rates. There appear to be three fundamental underlying issues:

• Making sense and understanding what the figures mean from a neonatal perspective
• What the figures were related to (the denominator in statistical terms)
• How the comparisons were made, and the reliability of that comparison

Questions about what figures relate to:
It is difficult for any health professional or statistician to understand what the headline figures mean. Richard Baker KC mentions “per shift”. Does this mean for each intubated baby per shift per nurse? For each intubated baby per shift (nurses often look after more than one ventilated baby)? Each intubated baby divided by the number of nurses on each shift? Each intubated baby divided by the number of nurses looking after ventilated babies? Each intubated baby looked after by Lucy Letby? The number of accidental extubations divided by the number of ventilated babies/shift?

Questions about data discrepancy:
Do the figures “make sense”? It is difficult to understand the claim that a Neonatal Unit has managed a 1% accidental extubation rate. Without a thorough and transparent explanation/publication, it is difficult to know how seriously (or not) to view these statements. We are concerned that this data has been influenced by improper methodology or inexperienced data analysis.

Questions about definition:
Sometimes endo-tracheal tubes can be completely removed because the clinician needs to exclude the possibility of dislodgement when there is a deterioration in a baby’s condition. Sometimes tubes can be removed because the clinician cannot be sure that the tube has been inserted correctly. Sometimes the definition can be stricter – and be defined in different terms, including some or all the following: inadequate/absent chest wall movement, desaturation without recovery, no clinical response to manual ventilation through the tube, changes in oxygen and carbon dioxide levels on blood measurement.

Questions about completeness of reporting data:
All clinicians also know that not all acute events (even if listed within a unit for mandatory ‘exception’ reporting as adverse events) get reported/recorded. We all know situations where one must rush off to other emergencies or reach the end of a tiring shift and although the event would be recorded in the individual patient record, the central recording of the event is not completed.

Questions about failure to detect abnormal trends through normal governance and adverse incident reporting:
Another key issue raised is the 40-fold increase in accidental extubations during certain shifts. If data quoted is subsequently shown to be robust, reliable and accurate, we question why such a drastic increase went unnoticed and unaddressed (for nearly a decade). The failure to raise this issue would in that case raise important questions and have profound implications for Liverpool Women’s Hospital (LWH).

Questions about scrutiny and supervision of those on training programmes:
Nurses undergoing intensive care training should always be supernumerary, and it would be normal practice for them to be supervised. If Lucy Letby was on a training programme at LWH, during this time, and the data is indeed shown to be reliable and representative, this would raise important questions for LWH about the level of supervision/support as well as the training she was being provided with during this period?

Questions about the methods used for statistical comparison:
It is not clear what statistical analysis of the samples took place. In addition, it is not possible to understand what statistical method was used for comparison between the two samples. The robustness and reliability of that comparison is also not clear (this is normally measurable in statistical terms). This brings into question the likelihood and limits of any variation that might arise due to random statistical variation (chance).

In summary, it is important that such presentations in public enquiries try to minimise avoidable distress to families. Of course, if the data is found to be robust, and therefore that further investigation is warranted, then it is essential that this is undertaken. However, the apparent careless presentation of unsubstantiated and uncorroborated figures is likely to create unnecessary distress and harm, and well as generating additional worry (for example, among parents of babies who were treated at LWH) should these figures be found not to have solid statistical and medical foundation. We hope that these issues will be taken seriously as the Thirlwall Inquiry proceeds.”

OP posts:
kkloo · 12/08/2025 02:51

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2025 22:51

Well I've heard different so I guess that's just one more thing people can't agree on.

Well you heard wrong.
It's a fact that they would not have.

pushthebuttonnn · 12/08/2025 03:14

For all those who think she's innocent- would you leave your neo natal baby in her care?
Of course she did it, the others just turned a blind eye to it out of laziness.

itstartedinthepeaks · 12/08/2025 03:41

Well, it won’t be happening, will it? Even if she has a retrial (how long will that take, I wonder - possibly long enough to take her past the point she could feasibly have her own children) she will never return to her old life, as it were. She will probably live with her parents for the rest of their living days and after that, who knows.

But since you ask, yes, I would. I’d bet my house on her innocence. I don’t think that there is a shred of evidence she did this. But even if my answer was no, it doesn’t really matter. Whether you’d leave your baby with someone or not is not proof of their innocence or their guilt.

Glowingup · 12/08/2025 06:01

Oftenaddled · 12/08/2025 00:57

Yes. They looked for suspicious (but unnoticed at the time) events at Liverpool by auditing Letby's shifts, but apparently nobody else's.

Why would they look for suspicious events next to anyone else’s name? That’s what people don’t seem to get. The events themselves were suspicious, not the mere fact that she was there. The fact that there were deaths when others were there doesn’t absolve Lucy from suspicion. It wasn’t just a high volume of deaths - it was particular patterns - collapses on significant days, collapses of all three of a set of triplets in close succession, collapses as soon as someone else left the room.
Its so sick how people are tying themselves in knots to defend a serial killer of the absolute most vulnerable victims imaginable.

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 06:10

Why would they look for suspicious events next to anyone else’s name?

Becaise if every nurse is regularly on duty when unexplained deaths occur, then we can conclude that being present when an unexplained death happens isn't strong evidence of a murder.

Google the Texas Sharp Shooter Fallacy. Google confirmation bias. Consider if correlation proves causality.

Glowingup · 12/08/2025 06:36

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 06:10

Why would they look for suspicious events next to anyone else’s name?

Becaise if every nurse is regularly on duty when unexplained deaths occur, then we can conclude that being present when an unexplained death happens isn't strong evidence of a murder.

Google the Texas Sharp Shooter Fallacy. Google confirmation bias. Consider if correlation proves causality.

Which would be fine if you were trying to prove that she was guilty solely on the basis that she was there for an unusually high number of deaths. Which nobody is and the prosecution never did. They are basing it on the suspicious circumstances and LL’s behaviour around the deaths. You know like falsifying medical records and stuff to make it look like she wasn’t there.
Do you think the police investigated the deaths of every GP in Manchester as well as Harold Shipman, seeing as we can’t draw inferences from his high death rate?

YanTanTetheraPetheraBumfitt · 12/08/2025 06:48

I don’t think that the Shipman/every GP in the area analogy stands as there was no other common factor than him.

with these babies there was a common factor of being on the same ward. I thought the current prosecution was very much trying to say maybe it was a high number of unintentional deaths rather than an individual killer.

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 06:51

Which would be fine if you were trying to prove that she was guilty solely on the basis that she was there for an unusually high number of deaths.

No it wouldn't.

MargaretThursday · 12/08/2025 06:51

Insanityisnotastrategy · 12/08/2025 01:06

It's odd that it didn't come out at Thirlwall but having watched the snippet of interview with that parent, she's very clear that it was Lucy.

I wonder if she would have been as clear it was Lucy if she hadn't already been named though.

Years back in our local FB group someone posted about a red van with a specific dent in the back that approached their DC and driven off "rapidly" when approached by an adult. There were sightings all over town of this van being driven recklessly...
Then the original person came back, apologised, said it was a misunderstanding, the van had not been suspicious and in fact was now known to have stopped very shortly afterwards and btw it wasn't even red, it was blue.

So several people were convinced they'd seen a van which didn't exist.

If she'd picked Lucy out of a line up before she was accused is very different from being confident it was her afterwards

Glowingup · 12/08/2025 07:20

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 06:51

Which would be fine if you were trying to prove that she was guilty solely on the basis that she was there for an unusually high number of deaths.

No it wouldn't.

I said that argument would make sense if her presence was being used to prove that it was murder and not accident. It wasn’t - genuinely and it never was. The “statistics gotcha” shows a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Anyway, the woman is a serial killer. A baby murderer. And you’re defending her. For shame.

MargaretThursday · 12/08/2025 07:31

Glowingup · 12/08/2025 07:20

I said that argument would make sense if her presence was being used to prove that it was murder and not accident. It wasn’t - genuinely and it never was. The “statistics gotcha” shows a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Anyway, the woman is a serial killer. A baby murderer. And you’re defending her. For shame.

But on it's own it isn't a meaningful statistics, because there's not comparative data.

It's a bit like if I advanced searched you and stated you had posted 56 times on LL posts in the last 3 days therefore you were clearly a plant to keep her name in the news.

But on its own that doesn't show it there are people who posted 2, or even 3 times that amount. Or even that you'd posted the most, but 5 other people only had one post less.
It also doesn't take into consideration that you have been put on bed rest so are only really posting on MN and have posted 3546 posts total in the past three days.

Without context it's meaningless.

What if they'd done the same search on other nurses and found considerable more events per shift over that time than LL?
Would you be thinking they'd got the wrong person?

But we don't know because they didn't try it (or at any rate haven't admitted they tried it, which would be suspicious)

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 12/08/2025 07:41

MargaretThursday · 12/08/2025 06:51

I wonder if she would have been as clear it was Lucy if she hadn't already been named though.

Years back in our local FB group someone posted about a red van with a specific dent in the back that approached their DC and driven off "rapidly" when approached by an adult. There were sightings all over town of this van being driven recklessly...
Then the original person came back, apologised, said it was a misunderstanding, the van had not been suspicious and in fact was now known to have stopped very shortly afterwards and btw it wasn't even red, it was blue.

So several people were convinced they'd seen a van which didn't exist.

If she'd picked Lucy out of a line up before she was accused is very different from being confident it was her afterwards

Exactly!

There there are eyewitness mistakes.. Which are hugely common.... Not that the eyewitness is in any way lying... They're just convinced wrongly they've seen person A do X.
We have only to think about how 'sure' we are we have seen departed love ones in the local market... When we also know they are dead...

Even police line up identification don't have a good reliability rate...

There is also confirmation bias.

EaglesSwim · 12/08/2025 07:42

It's a bit like if I advanced searched you and stated you had posted 56 times on LL posts in the last 3 days therefore you were clearly a plant to keep her name in the news.

This.

Correlation is a dangerous trap at the best of times but when you cherry pick the data that you're using to find correlation you're well into the realms of meaningless data.

Tessisme · 12/08/2025 08:26

Anyway, the woman is a serial killer. A baby murderer. And you’re defending her. For shame.

I keep seeing this kind of hyperbole around people’s interest in finding out the truth. Nobody is defending her. Statements like this are so inaccurate. You make it sound as though people know that Lucy Letby is a serial killer, yet insist on defending her. People are questioning whether she is a serial killer. If everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was guilty, they wouldn’t be having this debate. They would be glad that the justice system had worked and they would have moved on. Multiple papers, news articles, documentaries and a well publicised team of experts have drawn attention to inconsistencies in the evidence which saw Lucy Letby convicted. The wheels are in motion. People do not have to feel ashamed for discussing information deliberately placed in the public domain for their perusal.

Viviennemary · 12/08/2025 08:47

Tessisme · 12/08/2025 08:26

Anyway, the woman is a serial killer. A baby murderer. And you’re defending her. For shame.

I keep seeing this kind of hyperbole around people’s interest in finding out the truth. Nobody is defending her. Statements like this are so inaccurate. You make it sound as though people know that Lucy Letby is a serial killer, yet insist on defending her. People are questioning whether she is a serial killer. If everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was guilty, they wouldn’t be having this debate. They would be glad that the justice system had worked and they would have moved on. Multiple papers, news articles, documentaries and a well publicised team of experts have drawn attention to inconsistencies in the evidence which saw Lucy Letby convicted. The wheels are in motion. People do not have to feel ashamed for discussing information deliberately placed in the public domain for their perusal.

I am convinced of her guilt. Lucy Letby had to be removed before more babies suffered. It took a lot of effort to get her off the ward. And people put their careers at risk voicing their suspicions when management tried to silence them. The police should have been called in earlier. But if folk think she's innocent and the evidence doesn't add up let them get on with it.

Imperativvv · 12/08/2025 08:58

Kittybythelighthouse · 11/08/2025 23:03

I started out thinking she must be guilty too. I didn’t even really pay any attention to it. I’m not that interested in true crime. But I am interested in justice. There came a point for me when there were too many questions and too many flaws with the medical evidence and with the procedure in the police investigation and in the trial. The hallmarks of a MoJ are all there but rigorous evidence for guilt is not.

Regardless of the outcome of all of this it has starkly illustrated that the British justice cannot properly handle medical evidence. Urgent reform is needed.

Yeah, regardless of whether LL is a killer or not, we know that our courts heard an expert witness completely misunderstand a piece of evidence to the extent that the author of the research paper felt compelled to publicly refute it after the trial. That is a very bad thing.

Even if that didn't lead to a miscarriage of justice here, the system clearly has the potential to deliver one, and knowledge of that undermines public confidence. It has to be changed. We need to seriously consider one court appointed expert rather than the adversarial model, and specialist juries when evidence is likely to be complex and technical.

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