Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

Yes, those are my thoughts. It's so sad.

And by the way, a child at 4 saying 'I want to be a boy', doesnt need to listened to, discussed with, validated or 'supported', you just go along with it until their next little announcement which is that they want to be a cat or a pencil.

"If a four year old girl suddenly starts telling a parent that they are really a boy inside, what is the parent supposed to do?"

The same thing they'd do if the girl said she was really a seagull, a tin of beans or a Vauxhall Astra.

I would also ask questions of what they have been taught in school.

It is not only this child that has been harmed either - what about all the other children lied to? Or their siblings being expected to lie to others as well? Who have been told it is ok to keep secrets and that sex doesn’t matter? How is that keeping them safe?

For your own protection, it's important to clarify whether the child is male or female.

If Thomas is a boy then the supreme court ruling makes it unlawful to include him in a girls' single sex association. In this case I would reply to the mother and say you need to seek guidance in light of the ruling then escalate with GG. Be polite and matter of fact, and keep copies of all communications with both the mother and GG. At some point, depending on GG's response, you may decide you can no longer run the group or be part of GG which would be a terrible shame, but they have put you in an impossible situation where you either break the law or GG policy.

If Thomas is a girl then she should be treated exactly the same as any other applicant. Batshit as it sounds, children can have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment and you need to ensure you are not discriminating against her because of that. If she is female it would probably do her a lot of good to be in a single sex group.

Four year olds are still developing their cognition and language skills. They don't understand what sex is, what social stereotypes are, what personality is. They have no concept of what female and male are, or how they are distinct from personality.

Socially transitioning a four year old is at best tragic, at worst abusive.

Social transition is not neutral and most children find it extremely difficult to revert once the adults in their life have done that to them. If there is anguish at puberty when this deception unravels, it will be because the parents failed them by socially transitioning them.

Four year olds can't even brush their own teeth. It is delusional to suggest that they are capable of making highly complex decisions that they want to be sterilised to appear more like the opposite sex based on how their developing personality aligns with social stereotypes.

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-teeth-and-gums/taking-care-of-childrens-teeth/#:~:text=Children%20aged%203%20to%206%20years&text=1%20other%20occasion.-,Parents%20or%20carers%20should%20brush%20the%20teeth.,pea%2Dsized%20amount%20of%20toothpaste.

GG hasn't updated its position post-SC, but I would expect by the time the EHRC final guidance is published that they will be forced to comply. Simply due to the financial risk of being legally non compliant.

If you put the child on the waiting list for now, you'll be able to deal with the situation properly once GG is forced to comply with the law within the coming months.

I wouldn't be asking GG for support now because they'll take disciplinary action against you for breaching their DEI policy. Some posters suggesting you ask them to back you up are either being a bit naive or aren't aware of GG's position and history on this.

Are you explaining uniformed organisations to someone who took one of them to court?
I'm not sure what kind of splaining that is but it's pretty audacious.

The Scout Association and Girlguiding are different entities.

Go and look them up.

I’m not sure it can be about you and “your life” here, but - as you’ve pointed out too - what the guides have as their policy. That’s all you can go on in this case. And if their stance is “inclusive” of transgender children (whether a 4 year old transboy/trans girl can be actively, consciously trans at such a young age), you do have to stick to the policy.

If ‘Thomas’ joined my daughter group. She would be leaving. Not because I am against ‘Thomas’, but because I would not have this mother using my daughter safe space for their agenda. I also know that our leaders would all leave. This is why these groups are folding because of this nonsense.

No, you have to stick to the law regardless of any policy.

Most scout groups i know are pretty mixed. My own group is 50/50.

nationally it’s 28% girls at scout age group and 33% at explorers

OP wasn’t sure if Thomas was transboy or transgirl & didn’t want it “in her life” regardless. But it’s not her life, it is her job/volunteer post & if “Thomas” is bio girl/transboy, law AND policy would mean Thomas can go. It’s not up to OP, but policy/law.

Yes this. I wish people would take the harms seriously.

This is why the SC ruling is so helpful.

And what happens when they are older and go camping, i loved camping with the guides, if hes born male he cant share a tent with anyone female, will he have his own tent and theres no way parents will allow a boy share a tent with their daughter,

@IridescentRainbow please do read this article:
www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

No, I don't think they'll support her or back her up.

If this parent is litigious it may be important for OP to be able to show she has acted in compliance with GG policy as far as she could within the law and that whatever decision is eventually taken regarding this child is the responsibility of GG and not OP. Also that nothing OP has done while communicating with the family would amount to unlawful harassment.

Asking GG how she is supposed to respond to this parent while waiting for their revised guidance is not breaking any DEI policy.

Just putting him on the waiting list sounds like the easiest solution but every girl who joins the waiting list after him (or can't because it is full) is put at a disadvantage and any other boy who is told he can't join would have a case for sex discrimination.

Absolutely spot on
and thanks @KatieAlcock for standing up

my experience is everyone on the ground in guiding are there for girls, not trans girls - it is and always has been a single sex girls space -
Leaders are just relieved they havent had a boy stuck in the wait list yet !

girls parents have chose a girls space not a mixed space - they could send them to scouts for that

Girlguiding HQ has been up stonewall’s arse and they haven’t emerged out of there yet ….

Oh man, so many opinions.

@Helpwithdivorce if you are still here, I have no practical advice but offering support with the stress its bringing.

A couple of points.

1. I genuinely cannot understand how a 4 year old can have feelings that they are not the gender that they are. Gender doesn't mean that much to 4-year olds in the 21st century. The only actual difference is whether they go potty sitting down or standing up.
2. It is harmful to affirm a child in a delusion that is not part of a creative play
3. @IridescentRainbow It is harmful to children to not have clear concrete boundaries to be set in lieu of "being kind and supportive". All you are doing is kicking the can down the road and telling them that their feelings are more important that other people. You are creating a narcissist.
4. @Thethingswedoforlove It is harmful to girls to be inadvertently told that they have to allow their boundaries to be pushed to accomodaete mens feelings.

Sex (and by extension gender) is not something that is imagined or percieved, it is immutable objective reality. No one can feel like a "boy" or "girl" because they are not feelings, but assumptions that the bad feelings are coming from their sex.

If a four year old girl suddenly starts telling a parent that they are really a boy inside, what is the parent supposed to do?

They're supposed to tell the truth and say no darling, that's impossible. That the child can dress how she likes, within reason, have short hair if she wants to, play with boys and "boys' toys", but she will never be a boy or a man because in every cell of her body is a special code that makes her a girl and can't be changed.

Then talk about what’s for tea.

Policy does not override the law though.

Colluding with a preschool / reception year child that they are switch gender is not loving …
it is abusive

neglect dressed up as liberalism

Actually no I don’t. What I do have to stick to is the law. Which says Thomas can’t attend regardless of what girlguiding says. And I can also close the unit. Which I fully intend to do if I’m bullied in to anything im not comfortable with

Its amazing just how many people go 'but the policy says' when they damn well know what the law says.

"I was just following orders" is not a legal defence.