Page 20 | Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 30/06/2025 19:05

KatieAlcock · 30/06/2025 18:55

Ummmm...
That's the Scouts.
It was me that was expelled and then invited to rejoin. See my earlier posts on this thread.

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The link referred to Maya Forstater, being as her name had been mentioned. The Scout Association apologised to her - The SA governs all scouting movements from Rainbows and Squirrels through to Explorer Scouts.

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:05

JLou08 · 30/06/2025 19:01

I didn't even realise rainbows was still for girls only. Scouts opened up to girls as well as boys didn't it?
I can understand teenagers and adults wanting single sex groups but does it really matter at such a young age?

This has been answered many times on this thread, to be fair.

BeeCucumber · 30/06/2025 19:09

The mother is looking for trouble. My 4 year old son once wanted to be pink - not the singer - but the colour. I went along with it for a week or so and then he wanted to be Postman Pat. I would seriously consider a social services referral under your safeguarding policy. Poor child.

2boyzNosleep · 30/06/2025 19:09

Helpwithdivorce · 30/06/2025 16:53

And what will you do at the end? Will you transfer to a guides list? Or delete them? I’m happy to ignore and let them sit on my frankly huge waiting list but I don’t want to pass them on to make it someone else’s problem

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Haven't read all the replies but Id make a referral to social care at some point.

Yes i know nearly every other post on MN is get SS involved, but if this mother is serious then she is causing emotional harm for this child. Young children may say they want to be the opposite sex, but its no different to a preschooler saying theyre a dinosaur.

There was a similar thing nearly 10 years ago and the boy was removed from his mother's care for the harm she caused:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/21/boy-living-life-as-girl-removed-from-mothers-care-high-court-judge

Merrymouse · 30/06/2025 19:10

IridescentRainbow · 30/06/2025 18:46

I also don’t believe parents should be pushing this on their children. But honestly, think about it! Why would a parent do that? As the grandmother of an 11 year old who has lived life since the age of four as someone of the opposite gender and who has been given the choice to revert at any time and has never deviated from their “choice “, I can say that a four year old may not understand the implications, but he/she will definitely know what feels right for them.
You stated that the mother wants to cause drama but give no reason for that belief. If my grandchild at four wanted to join a single sex group it would have been because he/she felt that was where they belonged. When I was a child I was in the Brownies. If someone told me that I couldn’t, I had to join the Cubs, I would have been very upset and refused.
Have you discussed the trans issue with the mother, so you have an insight into what is happening to this child, or have you just listened to gossip about a mother who appears to want to cause drama but actually has just been trying to cope with a very difficult situation where everywhere she turns in trying to support her child, she is met with opposition? The only thing that worries me in her case is that she hasn’t changed the child’s name to something that is more feminine or neutral. Having a little girl in a group with a boy’s name would be drawing attention to the child.
My grandchild chose another name after initially wanting to keep the original one. After a gentle explanation they changed it and I would defy anyone to pick out that child as transgender. It’s not an issue. Puberty will change all that of course, and will bring its own challenges but these will be dealt with as they happen.
I feel upset that so many people still seem bigoted and willing to judge, without actually knowing all the facts.

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How do you live as the opposite gender?

What did your grandchild do at 4 that led you to believe they were the opposite gender?

Why was it necessary for the child to change their name?

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:14

@IridescentRainbow it is not "bigoted" to question the psychological abuse of small children. The child is a boy or a girl. It's up to the parents not to enforce gender stereotypes. The little boy wanting to join Rainbows could easily have those activities elsewhere. Let him wear pink and like sparkles. He's still a boy.
Untold harm has been done to children and young people because of this ideology.

TheNightingalesStarling · 30/06/2025 19:15

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 30/06/2025 19:05

The link referred to Maya Forstater, being as her name had been mentioned. The Scout Association apologised to her - The SA governs all scouting movements from Rainbows and Squirrels through to Explorer Scouts.

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Rainbows are part of Guides not Scouts. Completely separate organisations.

EasternStandard · 30/06/2025 19:15

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:14

@IridescentRainbow it is not "bigoted" to question the psychological abuse of small children. The child is a boy or a girl. It's up to the parents not to enforce gender stereotypes. The little boy wanting to join Rainbows could easily have those activities elsewhere. Let him wear pink and like sparkles. He's still a boy.
Untold harm has been done to children and young people because of this ideology.

This, well said.

Children don’t need to lie for adults.

ParmaVioletTea · 30/06/2025 19:18

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:14

@IridescentRainbow it is not "bigoted" to question the psychological abuse of small children. The child is a boy or a girl. It's up to the parents not to enforce gender stereotypes. The little boy wanting to join Rainbows could easily have those activities elsewhere. Let him wear pink and like sparkles. He's still a boy.
Untold harm has been done to children and young people because of this ideology.

Worth repeating. Hear hear @RhododendronFlowers !

AlternativeView · 30/06/2025 19:18

Does anyone have the energy to write to them about this

Whosenameisthis · 30/06/2025 19:20

IridescentRainbow · 30/06/2025 18:46

I also don’t believe parents should be pushing this on their children. But honestly, think about it! Why would a parent do that? As the grandmother of an 11 year old who has lived life since the age of four as someone of the opposite gender and who has been given the choice to revert at any time and has never deviated from their “choice “, I can say that a four year old may not understand the implications, but he/she will definitely know what feels right for them.
You stated that the mother wants to cause drama but give no reason for that belief. If my grandchild at four wanted to join a single sex group it would have been because he/she felt that was where they belonged. When I was a child I was in the Brownies. If someone told me that I couldn’t, I had to join the Cubs, I would have been very upset and refused.
Have you discussed the trans issue with the mother, so you have an insight into what is happening to this child, or have you just listened to gossip about a mother who appears to want to cause drama but actually has just been trying to cope with a very difficult situation where everywhere she turns in trying to support her child, she is met with opposition? The only thing that worries me in her case is that she hasn’t changed the child’s name to something that is more feminine or neutral. Having a little girl in a group with a boy’s name would be drawing attention to the child.
My grandchild chose another name after initially wanting to keep the original one. After a gentle explanation they changed it and I would defy anyone to pick out that child as transgender. It’s not an issue. Puberty will change all that of course, and will bring its own challenges but these will be dealt with as they happen.
I feel upset that so many people still seem bigoted and willing to judge, without actually knowing all the facts.

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Who “gently explained” to your grandchild that they couldn’t keep their name?

so adults have basically told this child they cannot have a girls name if they like boy things, or vice versa?

how do you “live as the opposite gender” at 4?

surely it’s as simple as my grandson Thomas likes to wear dresses and play with dolls, or my grandaughter Susie wears trousers and likes cars?

why is a set of clothes and likes/dislikes “living as the opposite gender”

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

Helpwithdivorce · 30/06/2025 12:45

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:23

Thatcannotberight · 30/06/2025 12:59

Girlguiding is completely captured and has refused to accept the Supreme Court ruling.

Good!

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:24

My now 31 year old daughter clearly "lived as a boy" when she was about 6. She was mad about dinosaurs, and had them everywhere. Then she got fascinated by digger trucks and had loads of those toys, and pyjamas and slippers with them on, from the "boys" section.
She remained a girl. She successfully negotiated puberty and is a well adjusted, positive young woman with good relationships.

soupyspoon · 30/06/2025 19:24

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

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There is no such thing as a 'trans 4 year old'

A 4 year old cannot and does not understand concepts of their sex. This is simply a child who likes some things and doesnt like other things, thats all there is to it.

No one should be pushing regressive sex stereotypes on small children like this, its wholly inappropriate.

bittertwisted · 30/06/2025 19:25

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 13:31

It's not just about being "loud" or "quiet".
It's allowing girls to have a female only space to develop skills etc.

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Im all for girls only spaces. However this thread is actually enforcing gender stereotypes. I have a very gentle, quiet son. He hated being with loud, boisterous boys. Girls can be loud and boisterous. What are these skills to learn that can only be learnt without boys?
i really am GC. I don’t think this boy should be allowed to join

but let’s not gender stereotype boys being boisterous, loud, and liking boy activities. My son is will always be a boy, but this assumption of boy behaviour is gender stereotyping

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:25

soupyspoon · 30/06/2025 19:24

There is no such thing as a 'trans 4 year old'

A 4 year old cannot and does not understand concepts of their sex. This is simply a child who likes some things and doesnt like other things, thats all there is to it.

No one should be pushing regressive sex stereotypes on small children like this, its wholly inappropriate.

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Exactly this ⬆️. It is very damaging.

Lbet · 30/06/2025 19:26

I wouldn’t even attempt to pussyfoot around this mother and so no it’s girls only.

Merrymouse · 30/06/2025 19:27

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

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The 4 year old (from what we know) is a boy.

The reason for exclusion would be sex.

I am sure many little boys think it would be fun to join their sister at Rainbows or Brownies, but they can’t, because they are boys.

What is the difference?

Also, if you are excluding somebody because they are ‘burly’ that sounds like discrimination. Seems much more sensible and fair to have clear rules about sex.

RhododendronFlowers · 30/06/2025 19:28

bittertwisted · 30/06/2025 19:25

Im all for girls only spaces. However this thread is actually enforcing gender stereotypes. I have a very gentle, quiet son. He hated being with loud, boisterous boys. Girls can be loud and boisterous. What are these skills to learn that can only be learnt without boys?
i really am GC. I don’t think this boy should be allowed to join

but let’s not gender stereotype boys being boisterous, loud, and liking boy activities. My son is will always be a boy, but this assumption of boy behaviour is gender stereotyping

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It's not "enforcing gender stereotyping". It's challenging it. A 4 year old boy should be able to do any activities he wants, including wearing pink, liking princess stories, and enjoying the company of girls. That does not make him "transgender". It just makes him a 4 year old boy.

Steelworks · 30/06/2025 19:31

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

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I think the concern is that it’s not the child pushing the agenda, but the mother, and there’s other mixed sex options the child can join such as scouts, stage school etc.

Why is the mother insisting the child joined Rainbows? How is the child transgender? It may be something as simple that Thomas has chatted to Holly at nursery, who has told him how much she enjoys it, and Thomas has said to his mum he wants to go. That’s not the same as being transgender.

EasternStandard · 30/06/2025 19:33

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

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It’s not ok to put an adult agenda onto a four year old. Or other children.

Vaxtable · 30/06/2025 19:33

I would just say it’s a single sex space, and the matter has now been clarified in law that it’s biological sex therefore sorry they can’t attend, however perhaps they would like to try xxx group

DrowningInSyrup · 30/06/2025 19:34

My daughter said she wanted to be a boy when she was 3. Guess what she didn't and she isn't. She said she wanted to be a squirrel once too, unfortunately that didn't work out for her either.

Vaxtable · 30/06/2025 19:37

PopeJoan2 · 30/06/2025 19:21

It isn’t for you to judge. The four year old should join your group. It is one thing to exclude burly trans, who lived most of their lives as men, from women’s groups but to exclude a 4 year old? Not ok.

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Why? It’s been clarified that single sex spaces are based on biological sex, and there is no age range given for that, ie the law doesn’t say it only applies to groups where people are over the age of 16 or whatever

and believe me 4 year old boys can cause as much distress to children as a ‘burly man’

The op is clear it’s a girls only group, ie single sex