Transgender 4 year old wanting to join girls only group

[Helpwithdivorce]

So I’ll preface this by saying im very much a live your life however you please as long as you’re not hurting anybody kind of person. However I run a group, which is just for girls aged 4-7.

I’ve had a request from a parent for their child to join. The child is 4 and the parent said they are transgender. Now here is my predicament, which may be rightly or wrongly.

Firstly I feel like this mother is just out to cause drama, there are other very similar mixed gender groups, there is no reason this child needs to join a group only for girls.

Secondly I simply do not believe that a 3/4 year old child knows that they are transgender. I feel this is being peddled by the mother, again feeding the drama.

What would you do? I really don’t want this mother in my group, but the group is ‘inclusive’ so I can’t say no you can’t join.
Currently I’ve just ignored the request.

I am still waiting for you to point to the section in the equality act that allows some men, but not others, into female single sex spaces and for those spaces to remain single sex. Are you struggling to find it?

Aw, they call it a Dray? That’s adorable! I don’t remember my local Beavers calling themselves a lodge, though of course a Cub Pack has been called that since the beginning.

I have a dray in my willow tree at the moment.

This is a very good point. If it's a girl calling herself a boy, OP, then perhaps you might be able to help? I'd be worried about the child.

I know it is called the Equality Act for starters…

My experience of young children is that gender is not really a fixed concept.

I'm talking about a parent who had a son who wanted to be a fairy princess & dress as one when he was about 4. I had no issue with this & went with the flow. Now he's 30, very hetero having been married twice (first divorce due to his incorrigible cheating-much to my dismay & approbation) & has 3 children.

I think that children need to explore what it means to be male or female. A 4 year old has a lot to learn as well as thinking about what it means to be the gender that they are.

Oh yes, a former judges says something.

A former judge knows the following too though. A supreme court ruling is done on the basis of evidence presented to the judges over a lengthy case. A case that the former judge was not present at and didn't necessarily pick through all the details of. A supreme court ruling requires a MAJORITY of judges to agree. This means some judges may DISAGREE, but are overruled by a MAJORITY who say something different.

In this particular case, it was a UNANIMOUS decision by SITTING JUDGES who looked at the WHOLE CASE and made a LEGAL ruling.

This guy is a RETIRED GUY HAVING AN OPINION OVER A CASE HE HAS NOT SAT ON AND PROFESSIONALLY LOOKED AT IN FULL RATHER THAN CHERRY PICKING BITS HE LIKES THE SOUND OF AND BITS HE DOESN'T AND HE COULD HAVE BEEN SAT ON THIS CASE AND STILL SAID THE SAME AND STILL BE OVERRULED BY HIS RESPECTED COLLEAGUES AND IT COULD STILL BE THE LAW.

His comments are hugely disrespectful and legal illiteracy from this point of view. BECAUSE HIS VIEW IS IRRELEVANT.

But yes, don't listen to the law, listen to the retired judge spouting an opinion which is no more relevant to the law than any other bloke down the pub. 🙄

I find it's better to pay attention to the judges who actually considered the evidence and made the ruling.

Lord Sumption's knowledge of this issue is rather sketchy, and he clearly had some catching up to do when he made that statement.

While it is lawful for an association to be single sex (there are different rules for associations, so no obligation for legitimate aim/proportionate means test) there is obviously no obligation for an association to be single sex.

However, an organisation cannot be mixed sex, but offer less favourable membership to one sex.

If an association allows all girls, but only some boys, that is unlawful discrimination. Rainbows must choose to be either mixed sex or single sex.

Well it's really not @Helpwithdivorce decision to make but the powers that be way above her head. She mightn't like the answer though.

I think that children need to explore what it means to be male or female.

Sadly, they are now being taught in school that male or female are preference for certain sex stereotypes.

OP was pretty clear.

It’s a male child with a boys name.

and

The mother put a note on his file to say ‘thomas is transgender’

If this group included a trans identifying male child what is the justification for excluding a non trans identifying male child?

Beaver Scouts exist in Colonies which may be subdivided into Lodges.

SPOT THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.

Its irrelevant what his former job was.

My vast legal knowledge is that the law is the law, regardless of whether some guy who used to be a judge agrees with it or not! And that is a sufficient understanding of the law.

HTH.

Sorry you are in this situation OP. These organisations are screwing all their wonderful volunteers over. It's not them in the church hall every week having to deal with the fall out of their inclusive nonsense. They are dependent on the good will, time and energy of volunteers just to exist and then make it harder for them with non conformpliant policies.

I would maybe ask them- we have an actual case putting their policy to the test, what do they expect you to do? And stress that including boys is not compliant with the Supreme Court ruling.

I'd pull my daughter out too sorry OP. You might please one parent but at the expense of the others.

And sometimes these initiatives are unfair to boys.

It definitely changes that. Unless they have decided to be a mixed sex organisation it is only for females.

Do we need a legal age limit to, as in this case, stop parents jumping on a trendy bandwagon. We define when people can drive, marry, join the Armed Forces, this too needs one.
The positive is that there'll be another bus along shortly to which she can attach her star.

It sounds like a female child who now identifies as a boy and perhaps a mum applying to make the same point as trans men joining women's groups. The idea is that women will be so horrified by the results of their actions now they have manly transmen everywhere that they'll realise transwomen were less scary, I think. Not a point I agree with, obviously, but there's definitely a push on my local FB for women with male identities to show women how stupid the SC ruling is.

Therefore I think she's out to use you to prove a point, not letting in boys who think they are girls OR girls who think they are boys = transphobic!

I think I'd want clarity and reply along the lines of "if Thomas was female at birth, they are welcome to join but as we won't be able to adjust our language around it being a group for girls, he might be more comfortable at squirrels, where a child can explore their gender without it influencing their membership.

I am currently in a position where I volunteer and may have to say I can no longer continue to do so because they are breaking the law... I'm struggling with it.

So what? They are different. Good to do things together and do things apart.

At that age I would have a mixed group anyway. Youre making problems.

Oh come on. I have a 3 year old. They have no idea what’s going on with regard sex or gender. Mine thinks it’s hilarious I don’t have a penis and keeps asking where it’s gone 😂

So boys should set up their own spaces where they can do the activities.

if girls can set up groups and activities as single sex so they can thrive socially, there is nothing stopping boys doing the same.

it’s just easier isn’t it, to whinge about not being included in the girls groups.

i saw this argument with a rape crisis centre. A trans woman campaigning to access a women’s facility. Apparently if women wanted a single sex facility they should just set one up, rather than exclude trans women from existing ones.

didn’t see the irony that that’s how these single sex groups came about. Either girls or women didn’t feel safe, or included in mixed sex, so they set their own up.

Girl guides recently posted a statement online about reviewing their admission criteria following the FWS ruling. My daughter is a guide and has gone through rainbows and brownies. She would have left if a boy had been allowed to join where she goes.

You need to clarify the sex of the child. If they’re female they can join. If male under GG admission criteria they could join but that is what GG are currently reviewing. Following FWS ruling boys should no longer be allowed to join unless they change to a mixed sex organisation. They currently fundraiser as an organisation for girls, to include boys goes against that and will cause issues with being a charity.

it is crazy that a parent thinks a child of this age can be trans.

I would be concerned about my 4 year old child being around a child who thought they were trans (had been transed by their parent). If you read the Cass review, we know there’s a risk to social transition and we also know there’s a contagion effect too.
And if they’re female, I’d explain to my child that they’re a girl but have short hair/wear clothes people
associate with boys (assuming that the parents have dressed their child in a stereotypical way)