Nicola Packer case (trigger warning) late termination at 26 weeks.

[Nicolapack]

I have just listened to the File on 4 podcast about this lady. She ordered abortion pills online during the pandemic. She then had a 26 week old stillborn baby. She hadn't realised that her pregnancy was so advanced when she took the pills. She went to hospital for medical treatment taking the baby with her and the nurses called the police.
File on 4 stated that the medical staff were under no obligation to call the police in this instance.
She was later put through the hell of a court case as they were trying to claim that she acted deliberately and knew her pregnancy was advanced when she took the pills. She was later found not guilty of knowingly terminating a pregnancy over 24 weeks.
I can't help thinking that the nurses should not have breached confidentiality rules by calling the police in the first place. The File on 4 podcast stated the nurses were certainly not required to do so. I cannot help but think that they should be held to account for their actions in this instance. It doesn't seem right that details of this person's medical care were passed to the police without this lady's knowledge or consent.

DP didn't know she was pregnant until she went into labour.

She has a titled uterus, which was apparently responsible for the fact she didn't feel any movement, and she didn't show (helped by a bit of new relationship weight gain).

She was on the pill so having light periods, and had a bit of breakthrough bleeding during the pregnancy, which made her think periods were continuing.

The only symptoms she had were some bad indigestion for the last month of the pregnancy, which was being investigated by her GP, and some breast soreness for the last couple of weeks, at which point she did take a pregnancy test. However it came back negative as they're not designed to be taken that late.

While I know in some cases like this the pregnancy is being hidden, I can categorically say this isn't the case with DP. She behaved normally throughout, we went ice skating a few weeks before she gave birth, to Alton towers a few weeks before that. She drank throughout, going on two hen dosnwhile pregnant. She was in work the night before she gave birth, lifting heavy boxes.

This is a woman who is incapable of killing a fly, there's no way she'd knowingly do anything that might hurt her child.

I do get the disbelief that a lot of women get when they hear this story. When you've felt your child move inside you, or had an absolutely horrendous pregnancy, it's hard to imagine someone else could go through it without even knowing. But it does happen.

Surely the point of informing the police is to establish truth in situations where the medical team are unsure?

Exactly.

Yeah it’s rare but happens.

Someone I knew had periods throughout and was out clubbing throughout.

Went to hospital with severe stomach pains after a night out and they suspected appendicitis.

Im not sure who was most shocked when her son was born!!!

You report to the police when you suspect a crime usually, not because you want them to find the 'truth'.
However, people have a right to privacy and bodily autonomy. These are covered by the Human Rights Act and can only be breached in very specific circumstances which having read the case in depth, have not been made out.
If I were Nicola Packer I would be taking legal action against the NHS, the police and the CPS. But i suspect she just wants this all to be over, especially now the whole country knows about her sex life, medical history and her circumstances in life.
Awful state overreach and abuse of powers.

A friend of ours went to hospital with pains and was diagnosed with a kidney problem and sent away, only to return the next day still in pain. This time someone did an internal examination and discovered the baby was there, so she was rushed to the labour ward and delivered a healthy full term baby.

This was her third baby, and she hadn't had a clue. She had been examined by a couple of doctors in A & E but obviously nothing was spotted. So it can happen.

I have a tilted uterus as do 20% of women. It’s a normal variation. I had a normal pregnancy with movements and showed as normal etc.
i am this does happen but it’s rare I think.

I knew mother of three who got to 6 month pg - she had a coil in and her and GP were both very shocked when a pg test was done to rule it out as cause of her symptoms - went on to have 4th.

Also known a few perimenopausal mid to late 40s women get caught and not immediately realise as everything gets put down to the menopause.

People not knowing how far they are along does happen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp852g0l6j6o

There is no legal duty for medics to report suspected crimes and the midwife was in breach of patient confidentiality for reporting to the police, says Prof Emma Cave, an expert in healthcare regulation who has read a transcript of the recording.
She says the midwife's initial assurance to Ms Packer that her care was going to be the "first concern" seems "at odds" with then being told that police will be informed.
"If people think that by attending hospital they'll be reported to the police, they might avoid treatment and suffer serious health consequences," says Prof Cave.
In response to what happened to Ms Packer and other women, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists released guidance to remind healthcare professionals that it is never in the public interest to report women to the police who might have terminated pregnancies illegally.
It is and always has been doctors' legal duty to respect patients' confidentiality, said the college.

It does seem like the HCP here were in the wrong reporting to police.

Yeah, I know. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was just saying that it can be a factor in hidden pregnancies, according to the midwife at the hospital when DD was born

Obviously a pregnancy that the mother isn't aware of until labour is fairly rare, but not as rare as I would have thought beforehand. One of the nurses after DD was born said she sees 2 or 3 come through the labour ward every year.

DP and I have also been fairly happy to talk about it, and have been put in touch with 3 other sets of new parents by friends and family over the last 17 years. 1 of whom didn't find out until labour, like DP. The other two didn't find out until a couple of weeks before giving birth.

@VimesandhisCardboardBoots I'm assuming you're male and your DP and you were just going on as normal straight couples do, rather than female and had been trying to get pregnant using donor sperm but hadn't thought it had worked?

So the police were so uncomfortable that they pushed for the CPS to change course when they said they were not going to prosecute!

Yes, agreed. It hardly suggests that the police were uncomfortable with prosecution.

Yep, male, and definitely not trying to have a baby. DP and I had only been together 11 months when DD was born, and she turned up despite 2 forms of contraception!

Nicola Packer's best friend here.

I can reassure you that the NHS staff will be held to account, as will the police and CPS. Nicola is being given the expert assistance she needs and people will be held accountable. This is not just for Nikki, but for all women who have endured this Victorian horror show.

As Nicola's friend, I can confirm she will be complaining. I hope heads roll.

As Nicola Packer's best friend – someone who regularly saw pictures of her in a bikini when she would have been pregnant, looking skinny as a rake, as someone who sat in on the trial and heard the medical evidence, and as someone who knows her really well, I can tell you she didn't know.

Part of the trial covered the fact that, according to medical literature, one in 500 women don't know they're pregnant at 24-26 weeks. And a surprising amount of women don't know they're pregnant until they give birth.

There is even a specific term for it, it's called a cryptic pregnancy.

Abortion pills are for early pregnancy, that is why the midwives/nurses alerted the police. It’s not for medical professionals to decide on guilt, but if they have doubts about a situation they are obliged to contact the police. As far as I can see the staff at the hospital acted appropriately, wasn’t their job to make the call

At 19 years old, I was on the pill. Went to the GP for fatigue, was told it should go away, assumed viral. I had been gaining weight while I was on a diet which led me to take a test. Positive. Figured I was about 12 weeks after googling at what point you start to thicken round the middle 🤣. Scan reveals 20 weeks 3 days so yes I can believe she thought she wasn't as far gone.

You are incorrect, they are not obliged to call the police. And you are incorrect about the abortion pills. They are only legal to use at home for under 10 weeks gestation. But they can be used after this under supervision.

On the matter of the police, you can check out the guidance from RCOG here:

www.rcog.org.uk/news/rcog-issues-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals-on-involving-the-police-following-abortion-and-pregnancy-loss/