Nicola Packer case (trigger warning) late termination at 26 weeks.

[Nicolapack]

I have just listened to the File on 4 podcast about this lady. She ordered abortion pills online during the pandemic. She then had a 26 week old stillborn baby. She hadn't realised that her pregnancy was so advanced when she took the pills. She went to hospital for medical treatment taking the baby with her and the nurses called the police.
File on 4 stated that the medical staff were under no obligation to call the police in this instance.
She was later put through the hell of a court case as they were trying to claim that she acted deliberately and knew her pregnancy was advanced when she took the pills. She was later found not guilty of knowingly terminating a pregnancy over 24 weeks.
I can't help thinking that the nurses should not have breached confidentiality rules by calling the police in the first place. The File on 4 podcast stated the nurses were certainly not required to do so. I cannot help but think that they should be held to account for their actions in this instance. It doesn't seem right that details of this person's medical care were passed to the police without this lady's knowledge or consent.

The science and biology may be the same but the manifestation of pregnancy symptoms are different for everyone.

Have you listened to the podcast?

You aren’t aware that people are different?

And I know two women who didn't know they were pregnant until they were six months gone. Both with their second pregnancies.
People's bodies are different. Pregnancies are different.
She says she didn't know.
I can't imagine any woman waiting until she was knowingly six months and then randomly deciding to end a pregnancy during the pandemic, knowing if it went wrong that emergency services might not get to her in time.

This reminds me of the police officers who tasered that one legged 92 year old suffering with dementia. I mean does no one have any brain cells? Stop to think for a minute and see a bigger picture? That reporting (or tasering) are the ONLY options? I'm agog really.

Who mentioned ‘identity’?
Not every woman will feel the biological process of pregnancy in the same way as you. It’s extremely narrow minded to insist they will. And if you were on a jury in a case like this, extremely dangerous too.

Apparently not. Scary to think people like this might be on a jury.

Quite. Otherwise all women would have the same amount of morning sickness, carpal tunnel, gestational diabetes etc.

after a third pregnancy, yes I agree.

However, I've had one pregnancy. I wasn't showing at 24 weeks, had no nausea, felt no movement, no outward signs of pregnancy at all.

I can well see how it would be possible. Having intermittent periods, I didn't test until I was 12 weeks. Not everyone is the same.

No I haven't.

If that is the case then why are some babies born prematurely and why do some go post dates; why do some women get morning sickness and others don't; why do some women get preeclampsia; why do some women feel their baby move at 12 weeks, others at 20 weeks and others not at all?

To be fair, I didn't have any symptoms with dc1. Didn't even look pg until I was 20 weeks. If I hadn't been obsessively testing, I wouldn't have known.

I also know 2 people irl who found out late. One was very young and it was a massive shock. The other was 7 months and her 2nd dc.

And you can often explain away symptoms if you want to. And vice versa. I sometimes feel baby kicks in my stomach and have a brief 'shit, what if...'? But they're most definitely not.

Oh don’t be an idiot.

How people experience pregnancy - when they show, what side effects they have - is vastly different.

There have always been and will always be women who don’t realise they are pregnant until very near the end.

And no, they aren’t all idiots. A colleague of mine was over 5 months before she realised, she wasn’t showing at all, she’d always had irregular periods and assumed the fact she felt tired was due to work stress.

I think they were right to contact the police. It’s safeguarding, she had admitted taking the tablets and at that point the staff at the hospital would not have known under what circumstances whether it was deliberate and she knew she was 26 weeks or if someone had potentially forced her to. It’s like when there are CP investigations and the parents are later found to have done nothing wrong - these sort of things have to be investigated to protect people.

I’ve had two babies, never been sick or even felt nauseous. My best friend wound up on a drip in hospital with hyperemesis. Two women, two very different clinical presentations.

It does happen. I know two women who were midway through their pregnancies before they found out - both quite sensible, intelligent women. Both had irregular periods so weren't concerned. One actually continued to have an occasional light bleed all the way through her pregnancy. Neither showed all that much, even in subsequent pregnancies.

Personally I knew full well I was pregnant by six weeks because I had severe nausea, but every woman is different. I barely showed until 24 weeks and didn't feel much until the third trimester due to an anterior placenta.

@Whiteflowerscreedthe science is not the same though. My two pregnancies were different in terms if the biological process. Some women have bleeding, others do not, babies lie differently, grow differently, some women look visibly pregnant early, some very late. Some people are really ill with hg, or experience pgp, or heartburn, or any number of symptoms, others breeze through with no issue at all. How women experience growing a baby differs significantly.

But the legal limit is 24 weeks and if there was no reason for them to have contacted the police about it surely the police wouldn’t have then investigated?

There is more fault in a system that allowed women to get these pills without seeing a medical professional first.

Personally I think she knew she was over 10 weeks but thought she was a lot less than the 26 she was.

I think it surprised her because she didn’t try and hide the baby and took it with her for medical treatment for her prolonged bleeding.

I’ve read other reports in this case that indicate she had been googling abortion pills when over 10 weeks. but I haven’t read the court documents so don’t know any of the exact details just media reporting.

I think the pandemic will have caused a whole other dimension to this case which I hope was considered.

As far as reporting to police goes it’s really hard to draw a side. I dont think woman should freely abort developed foetuses but I also am very against the idea woman who find themselves heavily pregnant and in dire situations can be prosecuted for it. It’ll rarely ever be black and white.

I have often wondered whether the ladies status (good job and financially stable) meant a judgement call was made and that I don’t agree with.

If the woman had been trafficked, extremely improvised or presented with severe MH difficulties would they have reported? That’s a really slippery slope I don’t want us to go down as a country.

I think they were right to contact the police, ultimately the midwives were faced with a dead baby.

However the real question is, why did it go to CPS and why did the CPS feel it worthy of prosecution.

Even if Nicola did know her pregnancy was more advanced (the court case proved she didn't) the NHS have got no business breaching confidentiality rules and calling the police. They are apparently only required to contact the police in cases of public interest. It is difficult to argue that Nicola's healthcare records being disclosed was in the public interest.

Yes - it could be dangerous if someone has for example an ectopic or molar pregnancy. They dress it up as easier access but really it’s because the service is useless and can’t scan and see women in a timely manner. The wait for surgical termination is far too long in many areas and makes what can be an extremely quick procedure into something much more traumatic for the woman when the wait is so long.

Thankfully the law disagrees with you.

I know 2 women it happened to, one woman had regular periods through out, rare but happens. She just thought she was gaining more weight and went to the docs for gastrointestinal issues only to find out she was pregnant at around 8months.
The other woman was large, thought she couldn't have babies, had a one night night in ibiza and 9 month later got rushed to hospital in labour, had absolutely no clue she was pregnant.
It's rare but it does happen, some women aren't as attuned to their bodies as others.