Nicola Packer case (trigger warning) late termination at 26 weeks.

[Nicolapack]

I have just listened to the File on 4 podcast about this lady. She ordered abortion pills online during the pandemic. She then had a 26 week old stillborn baby. She hadn't realised that her pregnancy was so advanced when she took the pills. She went to hospital for medical treatment taking the baby with her and the nurses called the police.
File on 4 stated that the medical staff were under no obligation to call the police in this instance.
She was later put through the hell of a court case as they were trying to claim that she acted deliberately and knew her pregnancy was advanced when she took the pills. She was later found not guilty of knowingly terminating a pregnancy over 24 weeks.
I can't help thinking that the nurses should not have breached confidentiality rules by calling the police in the first place. The File on 4 podcast stated the nurses were certainly not required to do so. I cannot help but think that they should be held to account for their actions in this instance. It doesn't seem right that details of this person's medical care were passed to the police without this lady's knowledge or consent.

Yes, not listening to people you disagree with is a good way to be open-minded

A friend of mine’s partner went into labour not knowing she was pregnant. We had seen them a week or two earlier, she looked as slim as ever, was in her normal clothes, not visibly pregnant in any way, so we were absolutely stunned (not as much as she and my friend!) Baby was small and back to back. So it’s entirely possible. Another friend went for her 12-week-scan to find out she was 30 weeks!

They should have a duty of care to the baby, somone has roo

So much hate towards an individual midwife who I expect was experienced and knew something was not right one way or another. The problem was a system that let this woman down she should have had access to a scan to check her dates. It’s not better for women and easier access to termination if flaws in the system lead to these kind of cases that’s the real issue and yet people are criticising one midwife .

I have felt what was exactly like baby movements when I wasn’t pregnant. I’m assuming just trapped wind.

This case is awful. The midwife sharing the info, the police for taking it to the CPS twice!, the CPS for prosecuting the case.

Abortion still remains ilegal in England except for in limited circumstances and access to abortion is not ease. I worry about changes in the law.

Yes - duty of care to the mother to have verified her dates before prescribing and duty of care to a potential baby over the viability limit who may have felt pain due to what happened .

A bit off topic but first pic is from a news story about someone at full term that didn’t know they were pregnant (cryptic pregnancy). This was four days before they gave birth. Does anyone think they look ‘obviously’ pregnant?

The second pic is someone who is 7 months pregnant and didn’t realise.

It’s entirely possible to not know full stop, and isn’t the sole domain of obese people.

Sorry but this simply isn’t true. There are many, many variables that can have a huge effect on how the pregnancy is experienced. Uterine pregnancy has ectopic. Where the placenta is attached. Number of fertilised eggs, or the egg splitting. Growth restrictions or fetal abnormalities. Maternal size and health. Number of previous pregnancies.

Actually I can well believe that. Someone I know (tall and slim) didn’t look pregnant even when she was virtually full term. However she certainly knew that a baby was imminent!

I do wonder how a normal-weight, full term baby can fit in a slim body and not (or hardly) show, though. Presumably it’ll forever be one of Nature’s mysteries…

No.
The right to life begins at birth.
For a very good reason else you end up like USofA where women with no brain function are kept on ventilators to incubate a fetus that will have no parents to look after it and likely be very disabled.

The case in the US is very very different - was the woman 9 weeks pregnant when she was declared brain dead ? In this case the woman was healthy and the fetus 26 weeks - 2 weeks past the legal abortion limit and 2-4 weeks past a gestation where survival possible with NICU care. It’s in no way the same.

edited to add from what I’ve read the fetus was also healthy and not with any disabilities that could have made abortion up to term legal ?

This is about someone saying they (HCP) had a duty of care towards the fetus in this case.
And I highlighting that The Right to Life begins at birth.

You understand that not every single pregnancy in the world is identical to yours?

I have a friend who's a doctor and didn't know she was pregnant till over 20 weeks.
On the pill, got sick so it didn't absorb, irregular bleeds due to pill, slightly overweight.
Went for a scan and found it was not as early as she supposed.

But to compare it when making that point to a totally different case just complicates the issue.

No because someone in this discussion believed the HCPs had a Duty of Care towards the fetus delivered.
Which is inaccurate.

Medical care should be just that. If women are frightened to come forward for care then they will die. The prosecution should not have happened.

The baby was 26 weeks and not under any circumstances where abortion was legal so I think they may have a point.

I didn’t look pregnant at 6 months (I knew I was because I had always had regular periods), but I had no morning sickness etc.
I was very slim but the baby didn’t show. People didn’t believe I was pregnant.
So I can see how someone with irregular periods might not realise.

It happened during Covid when rules were changed. They have never changed them back.

What you think and what the law says are very different things thankfully.

So then how is it possible that some women don't know they're pregnant until they're in labour?

How were the medical staff to know she was innocent though? It's not up to them to decide if someone is innocent or has committed a crime either. I think they did the right thing and this is really on the police/cps and the gov for reduced access to medical care during covid.

if she'd rocked up with a dead baby and it turned out she'd done it deliberately there would be uproar the nurses hadn't reported it so they can't win either way in this situation.

At least it was reported and investigated

It happens. Happened to someone I know in fact - it was quite sad.