Nicola Packer case (trigger warning) late termination at 26 weeks.

[Nicolapack]

I have just listened to the File on 4 podcast about this lady. She ordered abortion pills online during the pandemic. She then had a 26 week old stillborn baby. She hadn't realised that her pregnancy was so advanced when she took the pills. She went to hospital for medical treatment taking the baby with her and the nurses called the police.
File on 4 stated that the medical staff were under no obligation to call the police in this instance.
She was later put through the hell of a court case as they were trying to claim that she acted deliberately and knew her pregnancy was advanced when she took the pills. She was later found not guilty of knowingly terminating a pregnancy over 24 weeks.
I can't help thinking that the nurses should not have breached confidentiality rules by calling the police in the first place. The File on 4 podcast stated the nurses were certainly not required to do so. I cannot help but think that they should be held to account for their actions in this instance. It doesn't seem right that details of this person's medical care were passed to the police without this lady's knowledge or consent.

There's no obligation for medical staff to report a suspected crime

I think she should have gone to prison. I don't believe a word of her story.

NHS staff are not i the business of knowing whether something is in the 'public interest', they may suspect a crime has occured and if so report to the police. This happens all the time in cases of suspected abuse, children and adults. This is not that different to that.

The bigger issue here is why the police requested it go to CPS

The CPS didn't initially until the police appealed against their decision

Bodies are weird. Not everyone has classic every 28 day mensural cycles. Some women depending on their body shape never look pregnant. Some women may bleed throughout their pregnancy. There's a lot of things that can happen where a woman might genuinely have no idea she's pregnant.

And as you say , if that had been the case then they absolutely were right to report. After how many cases of people doing that and medical professionals turning a blind eye would it become ‘in the public interest’ as once it started happening more and people talk amongst themselves and desperate girls and women make the decision to take the pills too late it could be a really big problem if there’s a fatal outcome at some point. They made a safeguarding decision at that point in time and it has now been proven she didn’t know but they had to pass the information over just in case.

Well there you are then, this isnt really about the hospital its about police actions.

I agree. That it even could happen in the first place is terrifying. Goodness knows where we will end up if this assisted dying becomes the norm.

(and @GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER) I’m not sure I agree.

My first scan revealed I was 22 weeks pregnant.

The teacher replacing me, who came in for her transition day and my handover to her ( I was 35 weeks pregnant) said she was looking forward to working with me and asked who was going on maternity leave!

I am 5ft 2 and a size 8.

I think you'll find safeguarding is everyones business.

Do you also apply that to where a adult abuse or child abuse is suspected?

Hospital staff are faced with NAI every day.

I think there is an obvious chance in this case that the woman knew she was well advanced in the pregnancy. Therefore involving the police rather than simply taking her word for it is fair enough. Yes it's traumatic for her. It's also important to guard against late term DIY abortions.

but there’s also no law saying they are forbidden ? So it’s down to their individual judgment and I’m glad in this case it was exercised. Safeguarding is important, legal limits are important. It could have been a piece of a puzzle we just don’t know.

There is - they're not allowed to breach patient confidentiality (except to safeguard a vulnerable person)

I didn’t find out I was pregnant with my first until I was 15 weeks and even then it was discovered at a doctors appointment for an unrelated health problem. Not everyone’s pregnancy is the same as yours, believe it or not.

Exactly. These things have to be reported to the police and/or social services. The processes can be hard if someone is innocent but it has to be done to protect people.

I’ve seen it often on here a child or baby with a mark or bruise and the family have done nothing wrong but the parents have to be questioned and the child has scans and x rays to look for other injuries and it’s a horrible process but it’s vital to protect . In this case the legal processes were followed and she has been found to not have done anything wrong so the system has done its job.

Well it's obvious in cases of child abuse that the NHS need to report the matter as someone is actively being endangered. The rules staff operate under would make this clear.
However, in the instance of Nicola Packer's case, NHS were not obliged to call the police and shouldn't have abandoned their obligations to keep medical care records private.

I heard the programme. She had irregular periods anyway. Not everyone gets huge during pregnancy. And, as she said, she was very definite that she didn't want to have children; she isn't stupid, or vulnerable in any way; there would be no reason for her to knowingly wait that long to get the pills.

35 days in prison and showing her nipples etc to a jury in order to clear her name.
Bloody disgusting treatment.

What about these women who hide babies after birth and those babies die? They aren’t paraded in court.

Calling the police to interview her is one thing, if they think a crime has taken place. Putting her through caught, imprisoning her and having her show her nipples wasn’t in the public interest and even the police thought it was wrong.

There's no need to be so pompous. I'm fully up to date on my mandatory training ta very much. Maybe listen to the GMC representative on the podcast?

I would have thought she was a vulnerable person at that point - they would have had no idea what her situation was or if she was in danger herself . Was it during lockdown as well ? I would guess that was a factor if so she could have been forced to take them ? They did the right thing.

They had no idea what had happened, she may have murdered the child, she may have been being abused herself which then caused this. They were absolutely right to report this. I find it incredible that people think they werent.

Well some people think they werent.

This. While I have sympathy for this woman I don’t blame medical staff for involving police. It must have been very traumatic for all involved.

There was a similar case of a woman obtaining pills during Covid, though in that case she admitted to knowing she was way over the limit - she was convicted and jailed, though she successfully appealed her sentence

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/18/carla-foster-woman-jailed-obtaining-tablets-pregnancy-freed-appeal

Medical records are protected under HRA.
The right Patient confidentiality overrides EVERYTHING except in a case of safeguarding children.
That's the law.

Up to date on mandatory training. Well that trumps me who actually works in front line safeguarding I suppose.

I wont be listening to any GMC representative given how skewed some of their thinking on various matters has been over the last few years.