Why do our kids hate secondary school?

[noblegiraffe]

Together with the news from PISA that our teens are the unhappiest in Europe, new research shows that engagement and enjoyment of school falls off a cliff once kids leave primary and start secondary.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/revealed-the-school-pupils-who-disengage-during-year-7-dip/

https://www.thedeveloperlive.co.uk/opinion/opinion/why-do-uk-teens-have-among-the-lowest-life-satisfaction-in-the-oecd

"It found that while engagement declines through school “in almost every country”, the magnitude “is more pronounced in England”, suggesting disengagement is not just a symptom of age “but something atypical” that is happening in England.

There has been lots and lots of discussion about the impact that social media is having on teen mental health - what about the impact of having to go to secondary schools that they clearly don't like?

@footpath I don’t think they do, a lot of parents I know say things like ‘what’s the point in art if you’re not good at it’, bemoan learning about Pythagoras and say that maths should be practical but can’t even be arsed to read the money saving expert website. Most people have a strange, narrow view of their sense of responsibility towards their own and their children’s learning. If you only hang out with other fairly educated, often professional people you won’t see it but it’s endemic.

I don't doubt they exist but just question if they are the majority

The problem is that there are enough of them to disrupt the education of others.

They are.

I think nearly every lesson I get some form of "when will I ever need this in life?"

The results pressure has created this bizarre situation where learning is only seen through the lens of getting through the system, and not an enjoyable or purposeful process in itself.

A lot of people from families that value education still get turned off at this stage. I started secondary school as an eager to learn and fairly compliant 11 year old and it still happened. I probably don't even count in the statistics on disengagement as my attendance and GCSEs were fairly good but I wasn't happy in that environment.

Too many tests and assessments, too rigid a curriculum, too inflexible a school.

There is no time to just be, to engage with learning and foster a love of education. From CATS and NGRT in Year 7 to GCSE and loads of mocks there is no time to enjoy a subject. I loved English at school, reading books and talking about them, debates, writing poems and stories. Even in Year 7 now there is no time for this (and I am an English teacher). GCSE Literature is a
memory test that teaches that poems are boring rather than fabulous.
I could go on but the crux is that Gove made changes based on his rigorous education and it’s a pile of shite for 85% of kids.
Bring back pathways and vocational choices.

See also.

"I don't need this as I will go and work for the family business".

I agree. Too much time spent on rote learning stuff, testing it, and then spending time going over the answers etc. Mostly no longer needed now that "facts" are readily available on their smart phones.

We really don't need to be rote learning the periodic table nor memorising poems, nor remembering Shakespearean quotes, nor equations in Maths and Physics. We should be teaching skills not memorising facts.

The main subject where we need to memorise and test constantly is really foreign languages as you're not going to get far without knowing the words!

Things that I have found with my child (though he isn't miserable at school):

The curriculum for most subjects is SO dull and since Year 8 they have just endlessly practised GCSE questions!
Fortunately his school does offer a couple of BTECs which are more practical and interesting.

The petty rules and constant detentions and isolations for the silliest of things - his school make them write lines as punishment too.

Lack of social time - lunch break in 20 minutes free time and strictly controlled.

Toilets - it's difficult to access the toilets and if you manage to get into them they are dirty and feel unsafe.

Teachers - most of the teachers are inexperienced and highly stressed. Lots of absence and classes being combined and taught by cover supervisors.

Phones - although the school rule is supposedly no phones during school hours, practically the school expect kids to have phones for things like their timetable, dinner money and homework apps. Often supply teachers will instruct kids to do work on their phones. Also the school give out detentions by texting parents who are then supposed to inform the child, so obviously the expectation is that children are at least checking messages during the day.

We never learned anything at secondary school (long before Gove). Learning simply was not available. We just sat in different almost identical rooms and looked at the clock until someone kicked off.

I don't really get what you are all talking about tbh. Learn what? We never read any books at school. We did absolutely fuck all! I used to hide a book under my jumper in my bag and read secretly in the stockroom.

I think nearly every lesson I get some form of "when will I ever need this in life?"

I certainly thought this about certain topics/subjects but my parents really valued education.

Nope in my experience they get them earlier for starting middle school at age 9 because most of them walk to and from middle school. Although my kids weren't really interested so didnt have a phone until year 7/8

I agree with all of that (ex primary teacher). The environment we spend our time in is so important to wellbeing. And yes no-one would ever dispute that education is under funded and under resourced. Teachers and students are all negatively affected.

It is also built on forced learning and compliance. This has always been the case but today it just doesn’t wash with young people in the way it has in the past as society has changed. In the past parenting was also largely based on coercion and control but this has thankfully changed. What hasn’t changed is school. So there’s this real friction between the two things. Especially as many schools are increasing their coercion and control in a desperate attempt to ‘fix’ broken rules.

The curriculum is also too rigid too in my opinion. Too focused on exams and not on true learning and a love of. Too focused on knowledge and little else. Schools have sadly become exam factories.

I always felt that 5 year haul to GCSE was awful. Too long, no real focus, too many distractions from outside school. I hated it, DH did and my nephews find the same.
And for many kids leaving school at 16 was the focus. I felt it was too much, too young.
Other countries don't have a culture of leaving school so young, offering a wider education which keeps them engaged til 18.

Gove messed up so much. But why has no one done anything about it!

Even as adults, we only learn things that are interesting and useful to us.

How many of us have sat through mandatory training at work (or skipped through online sessions) and then immediately forgotten about it? It wasn't interesting or relevant, our brains marked it as useless.

Yet the current education system is based on getting kids to memorise loads of content that they find neither useful or interesting. It's doomed to failure.

I agree. They then behave badly. Their parents don’t care. So then all these draconian rules about toilets and uniform get brought in, which punishes the well behaved too.

I might be wrong but I think teachers needed a rest from the masses of changes that kept coming their way

And schools can’t afford new books and textbooks to cover a new syllabus

I find threads like this so interesting, they confirm exactly what I thought was the problem with secondary state education and validate my decision to send my children to an independent secondary (and their school is honestly nothing like those described on this thread).
However on threads about private education I’m told that I’m just paying for my kids to get inflated grades, that independent school is pointless and you can just get your kids a tutor and pay for extra curriculars etc. What I'm actually paying for is for them to not hate school.

Most European countries have excellent apprenticeships in all industries so DC have brilliant choices for what they want to do in life

We don’t have this in a way they do

If we did then DC would be happier knowing they have choices

They are set up to fall and feel like shit if they don’t attain high grades which not everyone is destined to achieve for a number of reasons

it doesn’t help when parents love to rub their DC achievements in peoples faces.

‘Oh my DC got all 9’s or A stars or went to Oxbridge blah blah blah’

All those parents can just fuck right off

When I read their comments on here I just think fuck off you twat

You have no idea what some DC have to go through in life so they aren’t able to achieve that through no fault of their own

No one gives a flying fuck about your DC but you love to constantly remind us. Bore off.

So yes many DC are unfulfilled when really they could be achieving well in area that suits them if it was on offer

it also doesn’t help that we no longer have proper council housing we need social housing for anyone that needs it.

Again other countries have this still

our DC should have homes they know they can live in and pay a set rent so they have enough money through work to survive on.

We lost that and it was really important for a large number of the population. It took away peoples dignity

We have friends in Germany with children in secondary. To an extend the issues are the same, exams, testing, uninspiring subjects or teachers, large classes, low level disruption.
SM and phones are a big issue as well.

What the biggest difference is - no detentions. No uniform rules and penalties for a tie missing, a shirt not tucked in, wearing a coat in the building.

If you didn't do your homework, well, you have to do twice as much. a 10 minutes detention doesn't make any impact so why even bother with the idea, you just penalise the teacher as well.
If you forgot equipment, well, you have to do the work on your own at home/registered as non-attending in PE.

Another difference is the way the system is set up, you have more options after the equivalent of GCSE, you aren't funnelled into a restricted path when you are 14 or 16.
I found it ridiculous that choosing a GCSE option means you can't or can do certain subjects for A-Level and therefore you have issues with uni applicaions.
That's just stress as hell.

I wonder if one downside to the draconian approach is that it pushes more parents into not caring about rules or their DC getting into trouble. I'm the sort of parent that would like to back the school up when it comes to discipline but some of the things I've heard teenagers get punished for would make me roll my eyes.

My dd is doing her GCSE’s at the moment. She’s enjoyed year 11 more than any other I think. Treated like adults, treated with respect and teachers actually know them and have a laugh with them, unlike the previous years where it’s crowd control.
shes hated the ever leaving teachers being replaced by ever worsening teachers and then going through the process of proving she’s an engaged pupil who wants to learn.

There is no definitive answer to that.

Labour seem to only care about VAT on private schools and attendance and the Conservatives only cared about attendance and sex ed.

despite a curriculum review Labour have done sod all about it. They don’t really care deep down about kids. Or teachers. Even though many are leaving in droves and every day more and more kids are being deregistered from English schools (I’m a home ed parent and ex teacher and see the numbers rising daily faster than ever before). Not sure when Labour will sit up and notice.