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Are We Feeling Liberated Yet? - Trump thread #141

1000 replies

Spandauer · 03/04/2025 19:23

King Donald has bigly new tariffs, First Lady Elmo turns out to be ballot box poison and 'Pick Me Girl' Vance is a meanie to the EU.

(But at least the penguins on the Heard and McDonald Islands are wearing suits)

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5297058-trumpmusk-the-doge-and-pony-show-continues-trump-thread-140

Trump+Musk; the DOGE and Pony show continues -Trump thread #140 | Mumsnet

Trump, as out of control as a faulty Tesla, takes an ICE pick to the Constitution. Thanks to *@AcrossthePond55* and *@Jaichangecentfoisdenom *for the...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5297058-trumpmusk-the-doge-and-pony-show-continues-trump-thread-140

OP posts:
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127
Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 07:57

Yes, @cakeorwine, this is where I am confounded. What about all those famous “checks and balances” by the Founding Fathers that are supposed to have stopped this kind of thing happening? Trump’s racism is so blatant, to my mind, this is the only thing that explains what’s happening now, that there are far more racists than we ever dared to imagine raising their voices and being heard now in the US.
Sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I’m in a kind of heightened state of horror at what we’re watching happen here.

cakeorwine · 15/04/2025 08:00

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 07:57

Yes, @cakeorwine, this is where I am confounded. What about all those famous “checks and balances” by the Founding Fathers that are supposed to have stopped this kind of thing happening? Trump’s racism is so blatant, to my mind, this is the only thing that explains what’s happening now, that there are far more racists than we ever dared to imagine raising their voices and being heard now in the US.
Sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I’m in a kind of heightened state of horror at what we’re watching happen here.

I would have thought that "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

means that you should do what the Supreme Court ruling should be followed.

Llttledrummergirl · 15/04/2025 08:12

Coffeetwosugars · 15/04/2025 07:48

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c175r8z8e1lt?post=asset%3A2e0f8d0d-e6e2-4952-80d6-4b9bd404a27f#post

I'm absolutely dreading what their demands to the UK are likely to be and it worries me how much Kier is willing to bend over to placate the egotistical tangerine..

I understand that Kier can't just tell him to piss off but any deal struck with them, even one that seems in our favour, isn't worth the paper it's written on. Also hate having to pander to such awful people.

Vance also stressed the president's admiration of King Charles, and what he called America's "cultural affinity" with the UK.

Vance can fuck off, we are not fascists in the UK- Trumps America can crawl back into its hole.

Keir (correct spelling) is doing a good job of walking a thin line right now. Labour is less likely to sell out the NHS for chlorinated chicken than the tories were.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Igotjelly · 15/04/2025 08:22

Llttledrummergirl · 15/04/2025 08:12

Vance also stressed the president's admiration of King Charles, and what he called America's "cultural affinity" with the UK.

Vance can fuck off, we are not fascists in the UK- Trumps America can crawl back into its hole.

Keir (correct spelling) is doing a good job of walking a thin line right now. Labour is less likely to sell out the NHS for chlorinated chicken than the tories were.

This! Vance, Trump and their supporters can shove their ‘trade’ deal (which they’ve shown won’t be worth the paper it’s written on) up their ass!

bloodredfeaturewall · 15/04/2025 08:22

vance' attitude stinks.

he seems to be watching house of cards and imagining himself as frank underwood...

Coffeetwosugars · 15/04/2025 08:56

Llttledrummergirl · 15/04/2025 08:12

Vance also stressed the president's admiration of King Charles, and what he called America's "cultural affinity" with the UK.

Vance can fuck off, we are not fascists in the UK- Trumps America can crawl back into its hole.

Keir (correct spelling) is doing a good job of walking a thin line right now. Labour is less likely to sell out the NHS for chlorinated chicken than the tories were.

I have to admit I'm not a Keir fan but I am really glad it's him and not the Tories or Reform in charge whilst this shit show is happening.

Apologies for my spelling mistake.. I'd blame it on lack of caffeine but tbh I was so pissed off, I simply wasn't paying attention..

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 09:01

Heather Cox's latest is truly depressing. Quoting in full, I hope no one minds.

April 14, 2025 (Monday)
Today, U.S. president Donald J. Trump met in the Oval Office with the president of El Salvador, Nayib Bukele, along with a number of Cabinet members and White House staff, who answered questions for the press. The meeting appeared to be as staged as Trump’s February meeting with Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky, designed to send a message. At the meeting, Trump and Bukele, who is clearly doing Trump’s bidding, announced they would not bring Kilmar Abrego Garcia home, defying the U.S. Supreme Court.
Bukele was livestreaming the event on his official X account and wearing a lapel microphone as he and Trump walked into the Oval Office, so Trump’s pre-meeting private comments were audible in the video Bukele posted. “We want to do homegrown criminals next…. The homegrowns.” Trump told Bukele. “You gotta build about five more places.” Bukele appeared to answer, “Yeah, we’ve got space.” “All right,” Trump replied.
Rather than being appalled, the people in the room—including Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and Attorney General Pam Bondi—erupted in laughter.
At the meeting, it was clear that Trump’s team has cooked up a plan to leave Abrego Garcia without legal recourse to his freedom, a plan that looks much like Trump’s past abuses of the legal system. The White House says the U.S. has no jurisdiction over El Salvador, while Bukele says he has no authority to release a “terrorist” into the U.S. (Abrego Garcia maintains a full-time job, is married to a U.S. citizen, has three children, and has never been charged or convicted of anything.) No one can make Trump arrange for Abrego Garcia’s release, the administration says, because the Constitution gives the president control over foreign affairs.
Marcy Wheeler of Empty Wheel noted that “all the people who should be submitting sworn declarations before [U.S. District Court] Judge Paula Xinis made comments not burdened by oaths or the risk of contempt, rehearsed comments for the cameras.” They falsely claimed that a court had ruled Abrego Garcia was a terrorist, and insisted the whole case was about the president’s power to control foreign affairs.
As NPR’s Steven Inskeep put it: “If I understand this correctly, the US president has launched a trade war against the world, believes he can force the EU and China to meet his terms, is determined to annex Canada and Greenland, but is powerless before the sovereign might of El Salvador. Is that it?”
On April 6, Judge Xinis wrote that “there were no legal grounds whatsoever for [Abrego Garcia’s] arrest, detention, or removal.… Rather, his detention appears wholly lawless.” It is “a clear constitutional violation.” The Supreme Court agreed with Xinis that Abrego Garcia had been illegally removed from the U.S. and must be returned, but warned the judge to be careful of the president’s power over foreign affairs.
At the Oval Office meeting, when Trump asked what the Supreme Court ruled, deputy White House chief of staff Stephen Miller said it had ruled “9–0…in our favor,” claiming “the Supreme Court said that the district court order was unlawful and its main components were reversed 9–0 unanimously.” Legal analyst Chris Geidner of Law Dork called Miller’s statement “disgusting, lying propaganda.”
He also noted that when the administration filed its required declaration about Abrego Garcia’s case today, it included a link to the Oval Office meeting, thus submitting Miller’s lies about its decision directly to the Supreme Court. Geidner wished the administration's lawyers: “Good luck there…!”
Legal analyst Harry Litman of Talking Feds wrote: “What we all just witnessed had all the earmarks of a criminal conspiracy to deprive Abrego-Garcia of his constitutional rights, as well as an impeachable offense. The fraud scheme was a phony agreement engineered by the US to have Bukele say he lacks power to return Abrego Garcia and he won't do it.”
As Adam Serwer wrote today in The Atlantic, The “rhetorical game the administration is playing, where it pretends it lacks the power to ask for Abrego Garcia to be returned while Bukele pretends he doesn’t have the power to return him, is an expression of obvious contempt for the Supreme Court—and for the rule of law.”
Serwer notes that if the administration actually thought there was enough evidence to convict these men, it could have let the U.S. legal process play out. But Geidner of Law Dork noted that Trump’s declaration this morning that he wanted to deport “homegrown criminals” suggests that the plan all along has been to be able to get rid of U.S. citizens by creating a “Schroedinger’s box” where anyone can be sent but where once they are there the U.S. cannot get them back because they are “in the custody of a foreign sovereign.”
“If they can get Abrego Garcia out of the box,” Geidner writes, “the plan does not work.”
On August 12, 2024, in a discussion on billionaire Elon Musk’s X of what Trump insisted were caravans coming across the southern border of the U.S., Trump told Musk that other countries were doing something “brilliant” by sending streams of people out of their country. “You know the caravans are coming in and…who’s doing this are the heads of the countries. And you would be doing it and so would I, and everyone would say ‘oh what a terrible thing to say.’”
He continued: “The fact is, it’s brilliant for them because they're taking all of their bad people, really bad people and—I hate to say this—the reason the numbers are much bigger than you would think is they’re also taking their nonproductive people. Now these aren’t people that will kill you…but these are people that are nonproductive. They are just not productive, I mean, for whatever reason. They’re not workers or they don’t want to work, or whatever, and these countries are getting rid of nonproductive people in the caravans…and they’re also getting rid of their murderers and their drug dealers and the people that are really brutal people….”
Scholar of authoritarianism Timothy Snyder explained the larger picture: “On the White House’s theory, if they abduct you, get you on a helicopter, get to international waters, shoot you in the head, and drop your corpse into the ocean, that is legal, because it is the conduct of foreign affairs.” He compared it to the Nazis’ practice of pushing Jews into statelessness because “[i]t is easier to move people away from law than it is to move law away from people. Almost all of the killing took place in artificially created stateless zones.”
Yesterday, Senator Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) requested a meeting with Bukele today “to discuss the illegal detention of my constituent, Kilmar Abrego Garcia.” He said that he would travel to El Salvador this week if Abrego Garcia “is not home by midweek.”
Judge Xinis has set the next hearing in Abrego Garcia’s case for tomorrow, April 15, at 4:00 p.m.
Today, Dauphin County Magisterial District Judge Dale Klein denied bail for Cody Balmer, the 38-year-old man charged in connection with the arson attack on the home of Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro on April 13, saying he is a danger to the community. Balmer allegedly set alight beer bottles full of gasoline in the same room in the governor's mansion where, just hours before, the family had held a Passover meal. Shapiro and his wife Lori, their four children, and another family were asleep in the house. Emergency personnel rescued the people and pets, but the historic mansion sustained significant damage.
Balmer said he has a high-school education. He is currently unemployed, does not have any income or savings, and has been living with his parents. Balmer was charged with assault in 2023, allegedly punching both his wife (from whom he is now separated) and their 13-year-old son in the face during an argument. He was due in court this week. His mother says he has mental health issues.
Balmer said he “harbor[ed] hatred” for Governor Shapiro and would have beaten him with a hammer if he had found him.
Governor Shapiro called it “an attack not just on our family, but on the entire Commonwealth of Pennsylvania…. This type of violence is not okay. This kind of violence is becoming far too common in our society. And I don’t give a damn if it’s coming from one particular side or the other, directed at one particular party or another, or one particular person or another. It is not okay and it has to stop. We have to be better than this. We have a responsibility to all be better.”

DuncinToffee · 15/04/2025 09:08

Coffeetwosugars · 15/04/2025 08:56

I have to admit I'm not a Keir fan but I am really glad it's him and not the Tories or Reform in charge whilst this shit show is happening.

Apologies for my spelling mistake.. I'd blame it on lack of caffeine but tbh I was so pissed off, I simply wasn't paying attention..

The BBC seems to be reporting this from a certain angle, their headline on the Trump-Bakele meeting was 'no surprises'

SerendipityJane · 15/04/2025 09:33

bloodredfeaturewall · 15/04/2025 08:22

vance' attitude stinks.

he seems to be watching house of cards and imagining himself as frank underwood...

Almost as if the casting of Kevin Spacey was prescient ....

SerendipityJane · 15/04/2025 09:36

cakeorwine · 15/04/2025 07:49

Can you imagine the outcry if other Presidents had defied a Supreme Court ruling?

Regardless of people's politics, I thought that US Constituency 101 is that Supreme Court rulings must be followed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Sioux_Nation_of_Indians

United States v. Sioux Nation of Indians - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Sioux_Nation_of_Indians

logicisall · 15/04/2025 09:47

I'm waiting to see the UK deal before I comment on Starmer's approach to Trump. I feel that Trump's view is similar to that of a domestic abuser/bully ie do what I want and the pain will stop.

Apart from working for the best interests of the UK, I also feel that our government has a moral imperative to us to not roll over for bullies, so appreciate that it's a balancing act.

I realise that I can only afford to say this because I'm a financially secure individual. The world is a sad place right now, but damn, it's making me angry!

SerendipityJane · 15/04/2025 09:59

logicisall · 15/04/2025 09:47

I'm waiting to see the UK deal before I comment on Starmer's approach to Trump. I feel that Trump's view is similar to that of a domestic abuser/bully ie do what I want and the pain will stop.

Apart from working for the best interests of the UK, I also feel that our government has a moral imperative to us to not roll over for bullies, so appreciate that it's a balancing act.

I realise that I can only afford to say this because I'm a financially secure individual. The world is a sad place right now, but damn, it's making me angry!

I would sincerely hope that behind the scenes there are meetings being held in secret to allow countries to act in concert.

If the world can't unite against Trump, then in the final analysis, the world deserves Trump.

Spandauer · 15/04/2025 10:00

When a headline says it all. 😔

I can't see how any of this will be stopped.
I fear that there will be more incidences of lone, possibly suicide terrorism/violence by people who have just reached the end of their tether and have nothing left to live for.

Trump and associates will laugh.

Are We Feeling Liberated Yet? - Trump thread #141
OP posts:
Wallaw · 15/04/2025 10:00

The thing I'm most worried about re Starmer and the trade talks is him caving to their 'free speech' demands, aka allowing rampant disinformation on social media. I feel that centrist/left politicians underestimate the vast reach of right wing social media. GB News is bad enough.

I heard Shapiro last night. He sounded truly traumatised.

I don't know how many people have heard of Judge Esther Salas, but she's a judge whose only child, Daniel, was murdered by someone whose case she had presided over. Someone (or numerous people) are sending pizzas to judges (and their children) who rule against the administration with Daniel's name as the sender.

I saw that Hungary banned Pride events yesterday. I assume Trump will be going for that soon.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 10:09

@Wallaw - re Governor Shapiro: the truly disturbing thing to my mind is that the great #47 (and #45 before him) actively encourages this kind of behaviour in his followers and it still appears nobody can stop him. Where is Superman when we need him? Actually, probably preferably, Superwoman? (I know nothing about superheroes except they change in phone boxes.)

Talkinpeace · 15/04/2025 10:13

Alt National Parks are shouting as loud as they can.

HCR preaches to the Choir

The Nave are still watching Fox News

TomPinch · 15/04/2025 10:18

I don't think anyone in the UK should forget what's just happened regarding the Scunthorpe steel plant or that the negligent Johnson allowed Jingye to buy it in the first place. Starmer is at least sensible, if very cautious about what he says in public.

That said, I do wish he would stick up for the Canadians. That's a country that the UK really does have a cultural link with. When French secret service agents committed murder* by blowing up the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland harbour, the UK said and did nothing and it was seen as a huge betrayal here, and I imagine the Canadians might feel the same.

(I'm not being rhetorical - they were convicted of it.)

Coffeetwosugars · 15/04/2025 10:22

Spandauer · 15/04/2025 10:00

When a headline says it all. 😔

I can't see how any of this will be stopped.
I fear that there will be more incidences of lone, possibly suicide terrorism/violence by people who have just reached the end of their tether and have nothing left to live for.

Trump and associates will laugh.

That's exactly what they want. Push people to their limits so they feel like they having nothing left to to lose and do something stupid. Gives them more ammunition to go after targeted demographics and gives them more excuses to tighten control on the population as a whole.

Once again thankyou for this thread. Most people I know irl are apathetic when it comes to politics. One of the women I work with actually asked me which party is in government atm. A lot of people out there, struggling with day to day living and simply don't have the mental bandwidth to think about the bigger picture. It's nice to have a place where people are engaged and informed. I've learnt a lot.

logicisall · 15/04/2025 10:35

I've learnt a lot.

I've learned so much more about gilts, T-bonds and the credit market that I can now do an AMA on them.😆

Coffeetwosugars · 15/04/2025 10:36

On a separate note, anyone watching new season of Black Mirror? Not to spoil it but first episode made me think about Elon's Neuralink..

Deafnotdumb · 15/04/2025 10:42

If the US Government refuses to follow the law, then the next step is civil disobedience. It does not help the people already sent abroad, but it might stop thr slide.

I can see a lot of the States quietly breaking away and disregarding the executive altogether in the long run.

I'm seeibg a lot of parallels with both Nazi Germany and the start of the English Civil War. The question is: what will the opposition do and are they prepared to go further than lawfare?

BustingBaoBun · 15/04/2025 10:47

I agree, this thread with it's nuanced opinions is worth its weight in gold.

I have a friend I am due to holiday with. She is completely opposite to me politically but we have a strong friendship of decades. I do my best to refuse to talk anything controversial. Last time we spoke of Trump in his last term, she said she loved watching him because he was so funny. 😲😒 I wonder if she feels the same now her pension has dropped....

Who thought it would be as bad as this? I will admit, I didn't, more fool me...
Please let the midterms make a difference please please.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 10:53

@BustingBaoBun Being realistic, mid-terms aren’t going to happen if Trump is allowed to carry on the way he is doing now. (I’m not the first to say this here.)

namechangedtemporarily123 · 15/04/2025 10:59

So what next for Abrago Garcia? Can this go back to the Supreme Court for ‘clarification’?

BustingBaoBun · 15/04/2025 11:00

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 15/04/2025 10:53

@BustingBaoBun Being realistic, mid-terms aren’t going to happen if Trump is allowed to carry on the way he is doing now. (I’m not the first to say this here.)

Yes, I've seen, but I've just stuck my head in the sand whilst crossing fingers and toes...

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