EBSA support thread 2

[Luddite26]

Hopefully this links to Brambley Hedges EBSA support thread.
A community to discuss the processes and support each other when children are experiencing Emotionally Based School Avoidance.

@amr78 have you spoken to the school about exams? If DS wants to try sitting exams but is can’t attend school, home invigilation is possible but the sooner you raise that as a possibility the more likely the school is of being able to facilitate that. Even if DS is saying he doesn’t want that, I would raise it with the school now.

@2x4greenbrick we’re going to raise it with school as soon as they’re back in so at least we can try and formulate some sort of a contingency plan.

Sorry to read your posts @amr78. I really hope your DS can get through this stressful period. I'm guessing by his age he is also a Summer birthday. Which doesn't help does it.
I know all the extra revision at school helps enormously but if it's too much to get in he mustn't feel bad he can revise at home or just get to the exams with a clear mind. He doesn't need any more pressure from himself right now does he. Hope he can get through and turn up and do what he can do. Then have a total break.

Thank you @Piony - all I’ve done so far is email her tutor and the assistant head this morning as they are the two members of staff we’ve had contact with, just to let them know she’s feeling really anxious.

She’s just come to me again upset because she’s worried about tomorrow. She said she doesn’t feel like there’s any teacher she can speak to 1-1 as they were always in groups on Monday, and she felt like everyone was in their own friend groups so she was very alone and was by herself at break. I’d have thought since it’s such a small school and the nature of the whole thing that they would keep a close eye on any new students to make sure they are ok. She is a super masker though so can be hard to spot that she’s not ‘fine.’

She did say it was totally different to how she was expecting and I think felt a bit chucked in the deep end to get on with it. Which again I am surprised at considering the nature of the school and the type of students they have.

Do you think it’s reasonable for me to send a follow up email with more details and request a meeting with me present? Dd is fantastic at articulating how she feels but I know she would be more comfortable with me there to advocate for her. We’ve not actually had a decent 1-1 conversation with the staff there, as when we went to look around there was the HoY from her old school there too and there wasn’t really the opportunity to have an in-depth conversation. I think this would be really beneficial for her as she can say how she feels and I can explain what she needs to feel more comfortable.

Hi @Leafywool . I'm so sorry it hasn't gone so well. After waiting this long it feels like they could have done a bit more to help, now you are caught in the middle. Have they been in touch today ?
Your poor DD she has put herself through so much to get there she can't have much left in her. I hope they can see where they have let her down.

Sorry cross posted.x

Personally @Leafywool you just need to try to communicate to them as much as you can. They really need to listen for DD to have any chance of settling in at all.
I don't think pushing DD to go if she can't won't help tomorrow. Hopefully she might be able to. If she can't they really need to encourage her out. You and DD can't do that alone. Fingers crossed they listen and up their game. So sorry.

Thank you @Luddite26 I have found this thread so so helpful over the past few months. I am finding the whole thing confusing because I’d have expected their approach to be completely different to how it has been so far. Hopefully since they have plenty of experience working with children like dd they will have some strategies to help support her better. I think it’s extremely crucial that we get this right for her asap.

@Leafywool do you take her in? I think it would be completely reasonable for you to ask to speak to someone with DD before leaving her in their care if she is that upset. It is so important that she experiences feeling safe in these early stages. Maybe email them early doors tomorrow and ask if someone could have a phone call with you both, or meet you together in person, and maybe keep DD with you until that conversation has happened. If DD needs to hear you say something to them before she feels safe being there without you, then so be it. It's really normal to have a new student buddied up even in secondary school - it seems a bit odd there is not more structure for her and it does sound like an easy fix. Maybe they are just not used to children with this level of need in this aspect. We can't always stop things going wrong, but when staff respond to it in the right way that makes the child feel validated, it can send a really powerful message that they are a safe person.

@amr78 it sounds positive that DS is being given agency over his exams and feels able to say what he wants. My eldest feels "the quiet room" was a double edged sword anyway as hers had all the students with readers, so it wasn't quiet at all! But that was prob just her school. I hope his week gets better.

Thanks @Piony you always give such great advice. I sent a detailed email to them last night and heard back this morning. Hopefully this is ok to share here but I have taken screenshots (and redacted names) because I’m not particularly happy with their response. Not sure if it’s going to be too small to read but will try and see.

I feel like we are stuck between a rock and a hard place because I can’t get her there in the first place for them to observe what she needs support with. I feel very frustrated by this. Also I don’t think chatting at the door with everyone else stood around is good enough really as there’s no way dd will feel comfortable enough to express how she is feeling.

I am going to question if they have actually told dd that she is able to ask the teacher for a quick chat if she needs anything, or the fact there’s on call welfare staff who can come down and help her (this is the first I’ve heard about this), or even shown her where the quiet room is and how she can access it. They pointed the quiet room out as we were passing when we had a quick tour a few weeks ago but that’s it. She’s the type of kid who needs to be explicitly told and shown these things because she’s no good at reading between the lines. Also I had no idea the group sessions weren’t compulsory.

I honestly think they need a good look at how they approach transitions for new students as we didn’t receive any sort of detailed information apart from some paperwork to sign with terms and conditions type of info, and her timetable. I even had to email them to check that I drop her off outside the doors and wait outside at the end of the day, because no one had told us this. I don’t think it would take much to put together a short information pack to send out to parents when they start. We had loads of info from her secondary school before she started.

The first drop off got off to a bad start as everyone was just walking in and signing in on a screen, and some people were waiting outside so we stood waiting expecting a member of staff to come out and help (it’s a tiny reception and was full of kids so we couldn’t go in easily). Eventually I collared another teacher who happened to step outside to find out what on earth we were meant to do…

It's frustrating, it sounds like they have all the building blocks they need to make this amazing, but no one is assembling them in the right order. It's actively topsy turvy and putting barriers up for her when they could easily do the opposite. Hopefully if they can understand a bit more they will be able to adapt, but at the moment it looks like they are leading with compliance, albeit in a reduced demand environment, rather than starting with connection and building a feeling of safety. I bet DD will comply her socks off if only they can get her to feeling safe there!

Leaders at DS's autism resource would turn this all on its head. Connection first. Soft starts. Take a welfare person and start DD with them, out of lessons, chat, play a game, make sure she knows where the loos are, when and how she can go to the quiet room. Maybe start her days by checking in with that person for a while. Every student in DS's unit had their timetable up on a whiteboard every day so they'd start by checking that. If Horizons feels more doable than English then start there and build up to the trickier subjects. Help her make a plan for unstructured time, or find her a buddy.

Telling her Horizons and forest school are optional shows so little understanding of why children feel unable to stay in school, and little interest in solving it. But there's so much potential in this set up for her. I bet there are lovely teachers there, but IMO they need to start by making it feel safe for her, on her terms not just what has worked for their other students.

(I might take those pics down)

Incidentally even if they have told DD about how to access help, she would have been in a massive adrenaline rush on day 1. Imagine if someone was giving you directions to a coffee shop while there was a hungry lion in the room - however compliant a personality you are, how "good", you would not take it in.

They could show her this stuff in slower time. Give her a map and get her to practice the routes when it's quiet. Give her a little task or treat with the welfare staff so she needs to go there every day for a week to embed the skill of going there.

Maybe this is OTT, I don't know your daughter or the school. Maybe they don't want to encourage these skills, they want her to stay in the classroom. Ultimately the best solution is connection to her class teachers but she also needs to feel safe moving round the school.

Thank you @Piony , you are completely right and the approach they would take at your DS's unit is the exact approach she needs here. They staff are honestly lovely but I am really surprised in the way they have handled things. I don't know if it's just miscommunication (maybe they aren't fully aware of dd's needs?) or something else. I don't really want to cause a fuss as I am keen to keep a good relationship with them, but equally I need to make it clear what needs to happen for DD to be successful there. I think I am struggling because I don't want to be seen as asking for things they can't realistically provide - and I know they have much more complex children to deal with - but I think she deserves more support than she has gotten so far. They can't help being short staffed but it's not the greatest start is it. It is difficult with her as she's very bright and is seen as more than capable to anyone who doesn't know her. I did provide them with reams of information about her before she started (I sent a full copy of her EHCNA application I had written out as they requested it) but I have no idea if that info was fully read or shared with her tutor.

It's a huge opportunity and we are lucky to have gotten a place, and it would be such a shame if it just went the same way as her secondary school did.

I'll ask MNHQ to remove my images now 🙂

I'm sorry @Leafywool that I missed your posts earlier today. I'm sorry you aren't really any further on. Have you had any contact about DD going in tomorrow.
It feels like they're accepting her not feeling comfortable as 'her' EBSA rather than any failings on their part.
I would want things to be more like @Piony described rather than the wishy washy reality.
It's 6 weeks since DD was accepted you would think they would have had everything in place for her on Monday rather than such disorganisation. It has knocked DD right back.
I know as her family your investment is bigger but it's like they just don't get it.

I read a piece on Substack by Eliza Fricker and it really resonated with this. I don't think I have the knowhow to post it on here but you might be able to look it up
I hope you have some luck tomorrow.x

Thanks so much. I am a bit gutted about the whole thing really as it could have been so different and we wouldn’t have taken such a step backwards. I have sent them (another) lengthy email making it clear that I understand their intention to give her some time to see how she gets on however her anxiety is so high that I can’t get her through the door, so we’re not in a position to demonstrate what is or isn’t working.

I’ve explained that after speaking with dd she needs a more graduated and supportive approach to help her build confidence, and that she specifically needs to be told and shown different things to be able to access them. I’ve given examples of what could be put in place such as building a relationship with a trusted member of staff to support her settling in, support to familiarise her with the environment (so showing her where things are and how she can access them etc), a consistent trusted adult who she is able to speak with 1-1 and who will do regular check ins with her and a more gradual build up to attending lessons.

I’ve also said that it would be helpful to have a more in-depth conversation about it all and that a quick conversation at the door isn’t really sufficient. I’ve said I’m still happy to speak to them in the morning but asked if there’s a private room we can pop into so dd will feel comfortable speaking openly. I’m not asking for an hour long meeting or anything, just 15 minutes would even be fine for now.

I’ve not had a response yet so I won’t be taking her in tomorrow. She’s due to be in at 9.30 and has English and Maths scheduled, but I’m not happy about sending her in until we’ve spoken to someone properly. Not that I’d even be able to get her to go in anyway!

Also thank you I’ll try and look it up 🙏🏻

Just to pick up on this point @Leafywool "understand their intention to give her some time to see how she gets on however her anxiety is so high that I can’t get her through the door, so we’re not in a position to demonstrate what is or isn’t working."

Every day you can't get her in IS demonstrating what isn't working. The evidence is already there now that she needs more scaffolding to get into the classroom. The approach needs to change.

I wonder if this sink or swim approach is just flannel made up after the event. Maybe it doesn't need to be taken literally, perhaps it's just code for "shit I dropped the ball on planning" or being particularly short of staff this week. Whatever, slide past that and concentrate on next week.

I would use the word "transition" a lot. It's easier to get things agreed temporarily and if they are needed long term, that's a battle for another day.

I totally know what you mean about the relationship between you and school, and I am v aware it's easier for me tapping away at a screen than it is for you to do this all in RL. I really hope you get your meeting and that they can engage and give DD the help she needs. When we were discussing speaking to them it didn't enter my head that you'd have to specify talking somewhere quiet and private for DD. Sorry for waffling on again. Brevity is not in my skillset.

Don't mean to bang on but Eliza Frischer has a podcast called Missing the Mark. And she's written other pieces you may be able to access. I think her experience is very similar to yours @Leafywool . You must feel more drained than ever.
I hope today brings something better for you.x

I am sorry to hijack your thread, but I don't where to post. DD3 is 16 and it's been very difficult to get her into school for the past 4 years or so. Her attendance is about 50%. Refused to sit her mocks. GCSEs start in May. She is only doing 3, plus a vocational course. I don't think she will sit any.
Before the Easter holidays the school announced that they were going to ban all phone use during the school day and that children should hand their phones in at the start of the day and get them back at the end of school, those refusing wound be sent home. My DD refused to hand her phone in on the first day back and was sent home. She has refused to go back since and school says they will suspend her. She suffers from anxiety and other MH disorders ( undiagnosed). I don't know how I can get her to see a doctor. We have had one early Help meeting with SS and the school. To make matters worse I am full- time carer to my mum at the moment, so not even living at home ( this has to change!). My husband works full time to support the family. I have an adult child (DS1) at home with CFS and one (DD2) at uni.
I know the school won't back down and I'm pretty sure that DD3 won't either. Having the phone and knowing she can contact family and friends when she is anxious helps her cope. She also had friends who were suicidal and contacted her at all hours for MH support when they wanted to harm themselves. This put a great strain on DD3 and she is frightened that is she doesn't have access to her phone, something bad might happen. I understand the school's stance on phones however. But what is the way forward for DD if she won't attend school or sit her exams? I just don't know where to turn.
I'm reading through the original thread at the moment. I can see that people are dealing with very complex situations surrounding school refusal.

Most importantly @IAmNotALoon you are not hijacking the thread at all. Everyone is welcome to offload .
In my opinion it seems a bit heavy handed of school to bring this ban in for y11s at such a late point in the day. I would guess DD is not the only one stressed by it (as many adults would be!).
Sorry you are having to deal with this on top of caring for your mum.
You can explain to DD that she is throwing away her hard work at the last hurdle. But if she is adamant that she isn't going in you can't really do much.
Sounds like she has more problems than the phone separation anxiety but that is the problem people will see right now stroppy teen.
Going to the doctors would be a good place to start to help her get into a better place for her future

If I was in your position and this is not professional advice at all, I would leave her to come to her own decision about what she is doing with her exams. I'm assuming she's going to refuse school for the near future. I would try and keep it calm without escalating anything and let your DD make her decisions.
It would be easier for her to do the exams now rather than looking at her options in September.

But teens of this age are old enough to understand the consequences and they are the ones who will be living with them consequences. You can't force anything at this age.
Sorry if that isn't much use.

Thank you @Luddite26, that is very helpful. I know she will have to make her own decision about the exams. I'm pretty sure she won't be able to face them, though the school have made some special arrangements such as extra time as she has quite severe visual stress which means she can't read quickly.
Yes, she does look like she's being stroppy, but she has a real problem with the rather draconian rules that schools seem fond of imposing. This is ironically why we moved her to this school because they have a more relaxed approach. They have actually been very accommodating for her, but I think their hand was rather forced on the phone issue because some students were using them to bully other students. So I understand their stance, just unfortunate for DD.
She could do with mental health support or counselling but she refuses to engage with anyone. But she is brilliant at supporting other people!
I've been reading on the other thread about mental health being the most important thing and that is so so true. So ironic I was begging her older sister to take a break from studying when she became very mentally unwell during GCSEs and then A levels. But she would not. And we nearly lost her.
At least DD2 is safe at home in bed at the moment.

I hope you don't think I was labelling DD a stroppy teenager. I just meant at this point she would probably get dismissed into that category. I meant I would step back and let things calm down from the in school phone ban hopefully school will back down a bit or DD will just go in for her exams and maybe revise at home.
Mental health is the most important thing. But also yours is and you do not need this battle right now with school over mobile phones you have enough on with your mum and family.
I think school are being over zealous bringing it in for year 11 at this point in the year.theyve got enough stress.

Also @IAmNotALoon that's quite normal for someone on the spectrum to feel outrage at injustices and injustices for other people.

Welcome @IAmNotALoon, what a lot of strain you are under. No sight of hijacking here.

What is her current plan for 16+? Does she have a plan B? Are they threatening that she'll miss prom too and if so, does she care about that?

You can have a phone appt or do an e-consult for her and share your concerns with her GP. They won't be able to tell you much in response because of confidentiality but it's still worth doing.

It sounds like a complicated mix of understanding and not understanding from school. Maybe try to have a meeting with them about getting her back into school. It might end up centring round the phones but it'll go down better if you frame it round getting her in. There might be accommodations or other forms of support they can put in. I doubt they would sanction her using her phone to support others' MH when she should be learning - that sounds like it would not be safeguarding her - but a conversation might open up a route to some other ways forward . It's developmentally normal at this age to be quite black and white and think there is only one possible solution to problems but there may be some "third ways". If nothing else it sounds Ike a heavily reduced timetable might help, if she had not already got that. They may not be terribly helpful now it's been framed as a discipline/suspension thing, but on something this important it has got to be worth a try. Maybe you already have though and I'm just stating the obvious

Absolutely no one can make her sit her exams, true, but we were told fear of exams is often rooted in fear of the yawning chasm of change and uncertainty that follows it. That chasm is even bigger and scarier if they don't sit their exams so when it comes to it she may be able to give them a bash. If you hate maths and English, being able to give them up is a big prize.

I really hope school will be used to school "refusal" this close to exams and will work with you.

@Leafywool thinking of you and DD today x

Cross posted with you @Luddite26 . Of course you are right, @IAmNotALoon's MH matters too and we can only fight battles we have the resources to fight.

Thank you both @Piony@Luddite26 🩷

@Piony you are absolutely correct that she’s already demonstrating what isn’t working. I hadn’t thought about it that way. I’ve had a reply from the head of KS3 and they have set up a meeting at 9am tomorrow in a quiet room. So fingers crossed we can get somewhere.

@IAmNotALoon really sorry you’re in this position. It sounds so difficult especially with your caring responsibilities on top. This thread has been invaluable to me so I am sure you’ll get some amazing advice.