Kyle Clifford - does it make you think the death penalty in some cases might be right?

[mids2019]

Read about Kyle Clifford's crimes and although for most of my life objected to the death penalty actually found it difficult to find reasons in this case not to have it. I really just couldn't think of justification for keeping the guy alive as there. Is no hope of redemption, reformation or education leading to a man being able to renenter scoiety. We would be in a position of keeping someone alive for pets face it the ideological reasons we don't believe it is rig h for the state to forcibly take a life.

Maybe my mind might change but reading about that blokes crimes I think sometimes you do forfeit the right to life.

I’m not going to argue against the death penalty for people like Kyle Clifford.

I have read quite a few articles about the case and it’s certainly up there with some of the worst things I’ve heard. Tortured the ex for hours and raped her before murdering her. The mother was apparently in the same room as her daughter while this was happening. Killed the mother and both daughters with a crossbow and left the father and remaining daughter with a lifetime of agony knowing what pain and suffering those loved ones had gone through before death.

id certainly want a Game of Thrones level of suffering perpetrated against him though. Locked in a room with hungry Dobermans would do it.

Let’s hope so 🤞

There would probably be a lot of talk about "lessons being learnt" I expect 🙄.

To a point I agree. However one case of wrongful conviction is one too many. The death penalty puts someone else in the position of being a murderer. Also it is an easy, humane end for the murdering rapist. Let Kyle Clifford have 50 years in his self-inflicted wheelchair, locked in a room.
I agree with a pp that prison should have no luxuries like tv and gaming, and that working to keep the place (cleaning, laundry etc) should be mandatory and unpaid.

Also it's really not the black & white issue that many in favour think it is. As I said yesterday if a man breaks into my house and I stab him to death in self defense does that mean I should hang too? A life for a life and all that. But if not then how do you stop everyone who commits murder putting their hands up and claiming self defense too?

I read he killed the mum first as she answered the door to him. The ex he raped was alone in when he did that. The final daughter he murdered came home last.

And he calmly text John Hunt to ask when he'd be home too. Fucking chilling.

I completely agree. And death penalty for pedohiles.

Yes, I'm sure. The type of lessons learned that led to the injunction against Channel 4 from recreating parts of the litigation as it could lead to a distrust in the justice system.

I'm sure all the people arguing in favour of the death penalty believe neither they nor any of their loved ones could ever be victims of a miscarriage of justice. A brief look at some of the more notorious cases clearly shows that it could be anyone of us who is in the wrong place at the wrong time or who is connected to someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The same thing that stops / doesn’t stop them now? Self defence is already a full defence to murder.

This. Going back to Sally Clark, she was a respectable middle class solicitor married to another solicitor (partner in a firm until he gave it up to move close the prison where she was held) with a father who was a senior police officer.

She got out after 3? (I think 3) years - more than enough time for her to be executed as a multiple child killer if the death penalty had been available.

If she can be wrongly convicted, anyone can.

Two other women were also released on the basis of her successful appeal. One of them had served 6 years. Another woman, a pharmacist, so upstanding and middle class, was acquitted as a result of the appeal as the paediatrician who had testified against all the woman had been discredited by the end of her trial.

But yeah, it doesn't matter if a few of the wrong people are executed so long as the mobs lust for blood is satisfied.

There were quite a few people earlier in the thread saying that all convicted murderers should hang but as soon as it's pointed out that would have included people like Sally Clark, Angela Cannings or Lindy Chamberlain they backtrack and say "oh no, I didn't mean them I was thinking more of X".

Also to mention your earlier post I did ask someone yesterday who said they were comfortable with an innocent person being found guilty and executed how they'd feel if that was a member of their family but the reply I got was "it wouldn't happen" 🤦.

Hmm. I suspect if they had been asked at the time of conviction for any of those women or any of the Guildford 4 or Birmingham 6, they would have been gung-ho with the noose.

In a Daily Mail article it said
“One distressing piece of evidence – which epitomised both his cruelty and depravity – was that Carol was found in the same room, off the hall, where Louise was raped and killed.”

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast does that not mean that Louise was well aware of her mums murder during her 2 hours of being held captive? I might be wrong but I read her mum answered the door to him and he stabbed her on the spot to gain entry.

Yeah, Guissieppe Conlon was law abiding all his life. Trusted in the justice system. He died in prison, an innocent man. Annie Maguire, the epitomy of respectability, trusted in the justice system. 14 years for a crime she didn't commit.

But yeah, it couldn't happen to them. Until it does.

I can see why people want this guy dead. He’s a depraved monster who has inflicted a lifetime of harm on a family.

I often feel like I’d support the death penalty in cases like this, as well as similar ones.

But it is true what people say about potential for wrongful conviction.

Maybe people want the death penalty because they feel like prison is too easy a ride for many of them. I’ve worked in a prison and it’s shit, of course, but maybe not shit enough.

Maybe an overhaul of things like recreation access, TVs in cells, the option not to work etc needs done. Make it fucking miserable so that anyone thinking of committing crime knows what’s coming to them.

If they go ahead and commit crime, I’d ensure no access to entertainment, recreation etc until they’re earned.

Yep. Someone claimed the saw seventeen year old Sam Hallam at the scene of a murder, even though they recanted their statement, nobody was interested and Sam had no alibi. So he spent seven years in prison.
And this was in 2004 with all the magic CCTV and technology that they claim makes all the difference to prevent wrongly arrests. But couldn't happen to them.

Did he? Bloody hell. I read that he'd searched horse races probably to be sure where he was. What a bloody psycho.

I feel just like you do. I never could stomach death as a punishmen but I have completely turned around. I think it was the grooming gangs that shook me up most. Those men were beyond evil . I feel the sale about rapists, rape is worse thanmurder in my view and gang rape even more traumatizing.

Yes he used his ex's phone to do it after he'd killed her. John replied thinking it was his daughter he was talking to. I'm not sure if his motive was to try and kill JH too or work how long he could stay in the house undetected.

I feel like that about some criminals and would certainly feel murderous if that happened to a loved one. But on the whole it wouldn't work, we don't want to go backwards.

People who commit these sort of crimes are unfortunately part of the burden we carry as a society.

I've never really understood the mindset that says "killing someone is wrong, and to prove that the state is going to kill you".

It's a bit like the school of thought that biting a child is a good way to stop that child biting again. It's not. It simply teaches the child that if you are bigger than someone, you can do whatever you like

I'm Not a very sociable person, so the thought of being only able to socialise with people I don't know and who i have no interest in knowing, for the rest of my life? I might prefer death, but I've taken a life (hypothetically) so my punishment is to be in that situation.