Ukraine Invasion: Part 55

[MagicFox]

We're on 55. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦 That last one went quickly!

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Yes exactly, European NATO (ie without the US) can produce and maintain an overmatch with Russia and that's what needs to be done in order to deter. Fingers need pulling out and scaremongering messages (like the "your kids patrolling a foreign field" meted out on this thread earlier) need to be distilled into sensible public messaging about this simple fact. The public needs to support defence spending and accept the difficult decisions that doing so will require. Because our defence, our democracy, and Europe's defence and democracy, depends on it.

And in any case at the beginning of this century MY kid was "patrolling a foreign field" at risk of life and limb, at the behest of the USA. We had no gripe of our own against the Taliban when the USA started that little fracas, and, given that Trump sold the Afghan government down the river to the Taliban just before he left office last time, we might just as well not have bothered.

Yes, it's stories like this that make the pronouncements from people like Lindsay Graham stick in my craw

If it’s good enough for His Majesty then frankly Trump and Vance can go fuck themselves in their shit suits.

Watching the news channel
Just now and blown away by Trudeau's response to the question about the trump/vance ambush

Thank you for the new thread. Things are happening rather quickly now, Trump and Vance are arseholes but it’s really wonderful seeing the renewed sense of unity and support for Ukraine in Europe at least.
I’ve been reading Ukrainian comments on FB pages that I follow and Zelenskyy’s ratings have definitely gone up. Ukrainians are overwhelmingly behind him and are saying he’s a hero and saved their dignity by not signing Trumps deal.
Also it’s wonderful to see the UK and Europe standing by Zelenskyy and Ukraine, this really means such a lot to the Ukrainians. Thank you 🙏 💙💛🇺🇦

And if trump does come to visit again and shows his orange face in Windsor, I will be there protesting like I did the last time.

I missed it, what did he say?

I will be there with you

@Igotjelly Without slagging off trump he was clear that Putin is a criminal and a liar and cannot be trusted

And it was delivered calmly, logically and effectively

What we’re seeing in the last couple of days is how diplomacy should work. I have no doubt difficult conversations have been had and not everyone will be in agreement but the leaders have been aligned in their messaging and friendly in their optics. Trump, Vance and their cretins should take note of how true statesmen and women act.

I posted this summary on another thread as well

The four steps to emerge from the #LeadersSummit :

• To keep military aid flowing into Ukraine while the war is ongoing, and increase economic pressure on Russia

• Any lasting peace must ensure Ukraine's sovereignty and security, and Ukraine must be at the table for any peace talks

• In the event of a peace deal, European leaders will aim to deter any future invasion by Russia into Ukraine

• There would be a "coalition of the willing" to defend Ukraine and guarantee peace in the country

I would love to be a fly on the Oval Office wall right now. Hope you don't mind me mostly lurking, these threads are informative and calm.

Not at all, lurkers very welcome and please pop on and post if you ever feel you want or need to 💛💙

Thank you 🙏

Absolutely, welcome!

I still do think this may precipitate a pivot in US position. Being an old git I simply can't imagine the UK engaging significantly in a potential military action without the US. For years NATO have undergone expensive joint war exercises war gaming conflict with I presume Russia and will possibly continue to do so. NATO remains strong.

I think there will be many senior US military figures that will see the strategic error of the US engaging at this stage and looking long term at how much damage a one term presidency could do to a very long term strategic alliance. There may be forces in the US establishment that may be reaching out to see sense .

I may hopelessly optimistic and maybe wrong but I cannot see the US and Europe forming a huge schism in terms of military alliance which has underpinned our world order. The news just seems weird.

I saw this on facebook and loved it. Hopefully it will get approved.

www.facebook.com/share/v/18f7MBxLkM/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Ooh that tickles me 😂 just the level of crass humour I’m here for!

I would be wary of saying Europe can't ramp up or rebuild defence production. They can and Germany's new Chancellor have been explicit about saying so. That's before you consider Turkey, South Korea or Israel, all of whom have flourishing defence industries. It's possible to buy in bombs and bullets.

AFAIK (please correct me), the key problem is that Europe relies heavily on US for air defence. That’s going to take time to change. I also don't know what the deal is with satellite systems.

Bagpussnotbothered
I also don't know what the deal is with satellite systems.

Nor me. How useful is Galileo?

@Bagpussnotbothered

AFAIK (please correct me), the key problem is that Europe relies heavily on US for air defence.

I’m not surprised you might be confused, there’s been some interesting traffic on one or two threads that seems to have been designed to give that impression.

The simplistic answer from someone who once had that very task as a day job is “not really”, but I’ll also have to point out my direct knowledge is a bit dated.

There is or certainly was an integrated air defence system across a lot of Europe with the various countries talking to each other and sharing info on traffic. Most European Air Forces are capable to a greater or lessor degree of policing their own airspace with their own assets…(aircraft, some surface to air missiles) the USAF in Europe (if still in place) might contribute to that and they would be a nice to have, not a must have.

I know when I was directly involved in this all our plans assumed nil integrated US assistance. Now of course if we got to a full scale hot war over Europe the indigenous air forces would certainly be stretched, you’d hope for a hand and you’d certainly need logistics support for reloads of American built ordnance.

I think fundamentally anyone trying to paint a picture of Russian bombers roaming the skies of Europe unhindered if the US goes home is guilty of spreading disinformation.

I also don't know what the deal is with satellite systems.

No idea, though as we have seen already in the context of Ukraine when it comes to imagery there are commercial companies who will provide some facilities for a price…

Probably not much happening there right now seeing as Trump is of course busy golfing again this weekend! (I read somewhere he’s spent 27% of his presidency golfing at Mar-a-Lago so far)

I echo @PandoraSox. I too have really appreciated these very informative and measured threads and thank you to the contributors who kept this going for so long to such a high standard. It really is very useful.
I have been shocked at seeing so many threads mushrooming on this topic over the last few days, full of nonsense, miss placed anger, misinformation and everything in between. With some very sound attempts at showing reality in black and white but without much success. It felt like being in a parallel universe until I realised what was going on. I nearly decided to stick to cat threads for the foreseeable future. (Cat threads are the most polite and the safest place on MN and no competitive lying there).