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Let’s talk about how we can make changes in schools to improve them for everyone involved.

232 replies

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 11:24

Having binge-read the WFH/attendance thread, I feel it important to have a positive discussion about changes schools can make that will improve things for everyone.

As a mother of autistic children, a couple of whom have school refused to the point of us being threatened with court and fines, and feeling totally unsupported by school, and ending up home educating because there felt like no other options, which also meant claiming more benefits to be able to do that.

I feel there are alternative options that would help schools become less chaotic, ease the stress on SN families (much of which comes from gaslighting and lack of support from within school) and improve outcomes for most children involved.

Lack of special school spaces is obviously an issue that must be addressed at some point, but for this thread let’s focus on mainstream schools, which seem to be really struggling right now.

At my youngest child’s school there was a high % of ND children, mainly because the local choice of schools is a draconian academy which manages out children with support needs, and this school, which is now riddled with attendance and behavioural issues. When I deregistered my son he was the 11th child in his year group to be removed, in a small school with under 60 per year group. My son’s attendance was nearing 50%.

What would have worked for him? Streaming lessons. Using technology already set up in the school during Covid lockdown. Allowing my son and others like him to login and register his attendance, and attend school and in a way that he could cope with. If he felt he genuinely had a choice to access education in this way he would have thrived. In days where stress levels were lower he could attend school and register as normal. If the day got too much he could come home and log in for afternoon lessons without it affecting his attendance and worrying schools, OFSTED and government. With this arrangement I know that his attendance, and that of loads like him, would be 100%. He wants to learn, but he can’t always do it in school.
Edited to add: this would also work for children who are ill who should be at home instead of spreading their germs to everyone!

I also think this plan could go further in dealing with increasing behavioural issues in the classroom, by being clear to parents that any issues (a lot which will be caused by unsupported SN) and their child will do lessons in a quiet room, streamed to a device with headphones (isolation room was often full of children who couldn’t cope in a loud classroom and who calmed down once there), and if the behaviour persists they can go home to learn there - if school is then not accessed they can be chased for their attendance, because a workable option is available.

Schools can then have a clearer line of acceptable behaviour with a real solution that’s not up for debate. At the moment lines are blurred and behaviour remains a big problem.

So rather than talking about the problem, can we have a discussion about potential solutions?

It’s depressing reading the frequent threads fighting teachers and/or children and/or parents.
Teachers are understandably not coping and are often blaming pupils and parents, children are not coping - as seen with rising rates of mental illness and poor attendance, parents are not coping because, especially those of us with SN children, we can see that they are not supported and we take the brunt of that once home. The system isn’t working for anyone.

So what can be done, because unless someone addresses the issues, instead of constantly pointing fingers at any other problem, this is only going to get worse for teachers, parents and pupils alike.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:00

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 20:51

Schools were able to be a lot more flexible back in the day. I know I spent quite a lot of time out of the classroom doing various things.

There weren’t anywhere near as many subjects / expectations at such a young age, either.

I’d be a school refuser now, from everything I’ve seen and heard about today’s schools. But I wasn’t in the 80s/90s - so something has changed about the school system.

Same here!
I remember children who today would be considered to have SN, but in primary in the 80s it was managed fine - obviously there were no dc with serious needs.

I coped because there was less pressure. The classrooms were easier to be in - not like primary classrooms now that I can nearly stand! Every inch filled with shiny laminated information, it’s a complete sensory overload! The informality in primaries now is a common problem for ND children, the grouped tables and more noise.

I was at a relatively high pressure secondary, but even that was much less pressured than primary is now. We were told that if we weren’t t engaging with learning it was on us. I think that’s changed over the years and teachers have to be much more responsible for their pupil’s achievements, which hasn’t necessarily been good for the pupils, and definitely isn’t fair on teachers.

When we went home there was no SM that meant social contact now carries on into the evening and beyond. After school I had a real break. I too would likely be a school refuser if I had to do school now.

OP posts:
Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:01

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 20:51

Schools were able to be a lot more flexible back in the day. I know I spent quite a lot of time out of the classroom doing various things.

There weren’t anywhere near as many subjects / expectations at such a young age, either.

I’d be a school refuser now, from everything I’ve seen and heard about today’s schools. But I wasn’t in the 80s/90s - so something has changed about the school system.

Flexible?! Mine certainly wasn’t. Uniform inspections, weekly tests, Saturday detentions, and ‘mental health’ didn’t exist let alone hall passes or ‘time out’ if we became stressed.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:03

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:00

Same here!
I remember children who today would be considered to have SN, but in primary in the 80s it was managed fine - obviously there were no dc with serious needs.

I coped because there was less pressure. The classrooms were easier to be in - not like primary classrooms now that I can nearly stand! Every inch filled with shiny laminated information, it’s a complete sensory overload! The informality in primaries now is a common problem for ND children, the grouped tables and more noise.

I was at a relatively high pressure secondary, but even that was much less pressured than primary is now. We were told that if we weren’t t engaging with learning it was on us. I think that’s changed over the years and teachers have to be much more responsible for their pupil’s achievements, which hasn’t necessarily been good for the pupils, and definitely isn’t fair on teachers.

When we went home there was no SM that meant social contact now carries on into the evening and beyond. After school I had a real break. I too would likely be a school refuser if I had to do school now.

I think that’s changed over the years and teachers have to be much more responsible for their pupil’s achievements, which hasn’t necessarily been good for the pupils, and definitely isn’t fair on teachers.

But you’ve posted a few times now calling for teachers to have more responsibility for meeting the needs of every single pupil, enabling adjustments etc?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:04

Hercisback1 · 23/02/2025 20:57

Oak Academy is completely free OP.

Really? I need to look again.
I thought I’d looked at it a couple of years ago and couldn’t afford it - maybe I looked at something else! This is a game changer if it really is free!

In that case then why couldn’t parents still remain under the umbrella of a local school but have an alternative provision like this as a back up without taking away the option of physically attending school.

OP posts:
ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:04

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:01

Flexible?! Mine certainly wasn’t. Uniform inspections, weekly tests, Saturday detentions, and ‘mental health’ didn’t exist let alone hall passes or ‘time out’ if we became stressed.

Mine didn’t have any of those.

I used to leave the classroom all the time in secondary school when it got too much. Never got into trouble / nothing was ever said. Don’t know if it was some kind of informal adjustment (possibly) or whether the teachers just didn’t care as long as you weren’t disrupting anyone else.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:05

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:04

Mine didn’t have any of those.

I used to leave the classroom all the time in secondary school when it got too much. Never got into trouble / nothing was ever said. Don’t know if it was some kind of informal adjustment (possibly) or whether the teachers just didn’t care as long as you weren’t disrupting anyone else.

How unusual. Strolling out of the classroom simply never happened when I was at school, unless for a toilet trip (you had to ask permission).

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:06

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:05

How unusual. Strolling out of the classroom simply never happened when I was at school, unless for a toilet trip (you had to ask permission).

Different schools, I guess

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:06

Or my teachers were unusually understanding of issues!

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:07

Do your your son have an EHCP OP? Could the online provision you think he'd benefit from be included?

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:07

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:04

Really? I need to look again.
I thought I’d looked at it a couple of years ago and couldn’t afford it - maybe I looked at something else! This is a game changer if it really is free!

In that case then why couldn’t parents still remain under the umbrella of a local school but have an alternative provision like this as a back up without taking away the option of physically attending school.

Because that would be a very complicated arrangement. You can’t half attend a school, either you attend or you don’t. Otherwise who has the duty of care? Who does parents evening? Can the child just turn up whenever they want? Who marks practice papers? The teachers of the real life school would have to collaborate with the virtual teachers to make sure all the curriculum between them was being covered, agree predicted grades etc

It would be an administrative nightmare.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:08

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:06

Different schools, I guess

Very different indeed. I feel a subtle re-write of history is going on as part of the ‘school today are awful’ narrative.

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:08

It does exist. It's called being dual registered.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:09

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:08

It does exist. It's called being dual registered.

And what are the administrative implications as I just raised?

Greenfencebrowntree · 23/02/2025 21:09

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:04

Really? I need to look again.
I thought I’d looked at it a couple of years ago and couldn’t afford it - maybe I looked at something else! This is a game changer if it really is free!

In that case then why couldn’t parents still remain under the umbrella of a local school but have an alternative provision like this as a back up without taking away the option of physically attending school.

I'd guess this would be difficult in terms of funding, resourcing and planning. If a school gets money for each pupil enrolled, what does it mean if some pupils are effectively on a "zero hours contract" arrangement?

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:09

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:08

Very different indeed. I feel a subtle re-write of history is going on as part of the ‘school today are awful’ narrative.

Don’t believe me then 🤷‍♀️ I’ve no skin in this game, just sharing my experiences

Wishyouwerehere50 · 23/02/2025 21:13

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 15:49

The SEN bill is at £10 billion, a record level. I wouldn’t say it’s underfunded. I’m not being contrary but the ‘lack of funds’ argument is a bit of an urban myth.

There is a humungous significant problem with appropriate and available resource provision. That's a fact. You will know this if you have SEN kids? So there may be this huge bill apparently, but most SEN parents,well we ain't seeing it.

Everything from assessment,diagnosis,follow up, every single thing, I paid for. Thousand and thousands so far. Because the state blocked every request I ever made. Gaslighting is the preferred approach now. It's cheaper.

Whoever mentioned the uniform like a stockbroker 🤣🤣. Yes! Please god damn tell me how full on 3 piece suit and blazer for fuck sake helps with behaving and prep for the big world? Absolute nonsense. I am not buying this crap.
'
Anyway,for me, I'd just like to see more accessible schools for Autistic kids who are bright, with access to vocational provision. I don't see it working with mainstream. The teachers probably feel ready to smash their head through their white board and I understand that. But what the schools then do to parents of SEN kids is cruel quite frankly. I blame the Government for putting that pressure and expectation on them.

My child is in mainstream. No other choice at present. It's a shit show for everyone involved. And yes,a 3 piece bloody suit is the required uniform or you pay the punishment.

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:14

About 11,000 children are dual registered. Here is some info.

www.devon.gov.uk/support-schools-settings/document/one-minute-guide-registration-d-code-dual-registration/

shockeditellyou · 23/02/2025 21:15

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 23/02/2025 21:06

Or my teachers were unusually understanding of issues!

Or they just didn’t care…

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:19

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 21:03

I think that’s changed over the years and teachers have to be much more responsible for their pupil’s achievements, which hasn’t necessarily been good for the pupils, and definitely isn’t fair on teachers.

But you’ve posted a few times now calling for teachers to have more responsibility for meeting the needs of every single pupil, enabling adjustments etc?

In response to certain posters.

I thought I’d been clear that the lack of special schools means that there are children with higher support needs that can’t be effectively met in mainstream school.

My children have relatively few support needs, as I said before just minor adjustments, a bit more flexibility with attendance and for my older dc ignoring him and letting him get on with it (no behavioural issues, I would not advocate ignoring him if it meant any disturbance to others). Both of their needs would have been easily met, but a few teachers were not able to do this and preferred to go out of their way to pick on them, punish them for zoning out (very common in ND and not disruptive at all), punish my oldest for ridiculous things that didn’t affect anyone, and because of this both reached a point where they could no longer cope.

IMO this was wholly unnecessary from those few teachers, it would have been less effort to support them!
When it comes to ND children, this approach is sadly very common, and has a big effect on those children. You see it all the time in school refusal groups.

I have a lot of sympathy for teachers in the way that schools have become, most days there are threads from teachers wanting to leave, and I don’t blame them.

At the same time though there were a few teachers whose unnecessary actions destroyed my dc’s chances of being educated in a normal way. That coupled with lies from them and SLT involved and education welfare officers, the whole thing was very distressing for all involved, a horrible time in life.

It’s possible to go through that and be unhappy with the few who could have had a more positive impact for little effort, and still have sympathy at what’s happening to education as an institution and how that’s affecting all involved.

OP posts:
SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:23

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:07

Do your your son have an EHCP OP? Could the online provision you think he'd benefit from be included?

My oldest did, but we couldn’t access anything, the LA wouldn’t support anything.

They considered a special school, but there were no spaces and we found a routine that worked for him and taught him valuable employable skills, so it worked out great. (Edited to add: ss only considered due to considerable trauma at his secondary where he was for 7 weeks - after that no mainstream school would accept him, and we went down the EHCP route after that).

With my youngest he doesn’t yet have an EHCP as his needs were so minimal and having been through it before I don’t think he’ll be awarded one.

He’d like to return to school, but unless we can find one with a flexible attitude to attendance it probably won’t work.

OP posts:
Wishyouwerehere50 · 23/02/2025 21:24

@SchoolsMustChange your experience is shared by thousands. Very similar to mine.

The problem is that some teachers go in and understandably think ' where's my extra pay for dealing with all this extra behavioural stuff'. My own child is one of them! I get it.

I think I'd probably lose patience if I've been doing the job a while, I now have lots of ' problem kids', in other words a higher proportion of undiagnosed and diagnosed SEN kids. How are they supposed to manage all this in a class of 30 with no help.

It's not ok for any party what's going on right now. And as most of us parents know,we can't do much. You can't just get them in this great school - because you can't find any and when you do you can't get a place.

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:25

Wishyouwerehere50 · 23/02/2025 21:13

There is a humungous significant problem with appropriate and available resource provision. That's a fact. You will know this if you have SEN kids? So there may be this huge bill apparently, but most SEN parents,well we ain't seeing it.

Everything from assessment,diagnosis,follow up, every single thing, I paid for. Thousand and thousands so far. Because the state blocked every request I ever made. Gaslighting is the preferred approach now. It's cheaper.

Whoever mentioned the uniform like a stockbroker 🤣🤣. Yes! Please god damn tell me how full on 3 piece suit and blazer for fuck sake helps with behaving and prep for the big world? Absolute nonsense. I am not buying this crap.
'
Anyway,for me, I'd just like to see more accessible schools for Autistic kids who are bright, with access to vocational provision. I don't see it working with mainstream. The teachers probably feel ready to smash their head through their white board and I understand that. But what the schools then do to parents of SEN kids is cruel quite frankly. I blame the Government for putting that pressure and expectation on them.

My child is in mainstream. No other choice at present. It's a shit show for everyone involved. And yes,a 3 piece bloody suit is the required uniform or you pay the punishment.

Edited

Yes. This.

OP posts:
Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:29

I think you should revisit the EHCP OP. I have set up support threads on here and will post a link in a moment.

I was also told my DC wouldn't get one. The people who told me that were wrong.

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:31

EHCP support thread no. 4 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4 I mean if your son can't access school that suggests a pretty high level of unmet need to me, not a minor one.

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 21:33

Phineyj · 23/02/2025 21:31

EHCP support thread no. 4 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4 I mean if your son can't access school that suggests a pretty high level of unmet need to me, not a minor one.

Thank you!

OP posts: