Let’s talk about how we can make changes in schools to improve them for everyone involved.

[SchoolsMustChange]

Having binge-read the WFH/attendance thread, I feel it important to have a positive discussion about changes schools can make that will improve things for everyone.

As a mother of autistic children, a couple of whom have school refused to the point of us being threatened with court and fines, and feeling totally unsupported by school, and ending up home educating because there felt like no other options, which also meant claiming more benefits to be able to do that.

I feel there are alternative options that would help schools become less chaotic, ease the stress on SN families (much of which comes from gaslighting and lack of support from within school) and improve outcomes for most children involved.

Lack of special school spaces is obviously an issue that must be addressed at some point, but for this thread let’s focus on mainstream schools, which seem to be really struggling right now.

At my youngest child’s school there was a high % of ND children, mainly because the local choice of schools is a draconian academy which manages out children with support needs, and this school, which is now riddled with attendance and behavioural issues. When I deregistered my son he was the 11th child in his year group to be removed, in a small school with under 60 per year group. My son’s attendance was nearing 50%.

What would have worked for him? Streaming lessons. Using technology already set up in the school during Covid lockdown. Allowing my son and others like him to login and register his attendance, and attend school and in a way that he could cope with. If he felt he genuinely had a choice to access education in this way he would have thrived. In days where stress levels were lower he could attend school and register as normal. If the day got too much he could come home and log in for afternoon lessons without it affecting his attendance and worrying schools, OFSTED and government. With this arrangement I know that his attendance, and that of loads like him, would be 100%. He wants to learn, but he can’t always do it in school.
Edited to add: this would also work for children who are ill who should be at home instead of spreading their germs to everyone!

I also think this plan could go further in dealing with increasing behavioural issues in the classroom, by being clear to parents that any issues (a lot which will be caused by unsupported SN) and their child will do lessons in a quiet room, streamed to a device with headphones (isolation room was often full of children who couldn’t cope in a loud classroom and who calmed down once there), and if the behaviour persists they can go home to learn there - if school is then not accessed they can be chased for their attendance, because a workable option is available.

Schools can then have a clearer line of acceptable behaviour with a real solution that’s not up for debate. At the moment lines are blurred and behaviour remains a big problem.

So rather than talking about the problem, can we have a discussion about potential solutions?

It’s depressing reading the frequent threads fighting teachers and/or children and/or parents.
Teachers are understandably not coping and are often blaming pupils and parents, children are not coping - as seen with rising rates of mental illness and poor attendance, parents are not coping because, especially those of us with SN children, we can see that they are not supported and we take the brunt of that once home. The system isn’t working for anyone.

So what can be done, because unless someone addresses the issues, instead of constantly pointing fingers at any other problem, this is only going to get worse for teachers, parents and pupils alike.

Any thoughts?

It’s not good enough to say that parents are allowing it - that’s not the case and it’s convenient but lazy to dismiss it as this.

There are some cases where parents are allowing it, and that's why the lines get blurred. Parents like you, fighting and trying, don't see this side of it, but schools do.

What would have helped your child (not online lessons, before the refusal bed in)?

Yes I agree.

When my older son was in primary school I was invited to attend a teacher training session in the area on autism - honestly I can fully understand how teachers get it so wrong.

The training was appalling, outdated, focused on very obvious stereotypical autistic behaviour, dismissive of PDA (pathological demand avoidance) behaviour which appears to be massively increasing in the last few years. And all the teachers went away with another certificate telling them they knew all about autism. It was unbelievable how bad it was.

As an autistic mother of autistic children I could have done a far better job at a moments notice!

This is controversial. But my son goes to a special school. He needs to be in a special school. The special school he is is great. It is entirely replicable within the state special sector but my LA doesn't have many special schools and none like his. If his school didn't exist he'd have no education.

But part of the fee for that school is a profit margin for the proprietor.

There are some types of care for highly disabled children almost all in profit making companies now.

If we sorted that out. It might make the money go further.

In terms of mainstream. Too much, too young is my view. I like broad and balanced but, since education is until 18, we can stop the pressure and spread it out more.

Weird. My daughter really likes wearing tights and skirts/dress.

You don’t solve most of schools’ problems in schools. £10 billion is absolutely mental and I’d question how effective it is. I like the curriculum my children have had so far and I think the focus on phonics and maths in primary is right. I think most children are capable of much more than we ask of them. Their primary school could have done with more cash to sort out the buildings and some more experienced teachers, but apart from that the problems it faces are social.

A school is not going to be able to solve why a PP’s daughter won’t wear trousers…

No offence but this is a ridiculous question.

The world of work isn’t like school at all, there are countless different environments that adults can work in, not just office jobs where you’re expected to wear smart clothes and socialise with many colleagues.

ND children often end up entrepreneurial and do their own thing - mainly when they’ve had the freedom to thrive.

If working in a particular place doesn’t suit them they can leave and work in a totally different environment. This is what people have done since paid work existed!

Work isn’t one amalgamated thing, unlike mainstream school nowadays.

Totally agree with this.

My dc is struggling with EBSA. We think he's PDA. He feels safe at home, he doesn't feel safe at school. What would make him feel safe is having an adult he can trust in the class room. We asked if he can get to know the TA so he will trust them and they can support him,, but the TA is heavily used to support another child who has physical disabilities so is not available to provide support to mine. We've been told he can get help from the TA as long as it doesn't impact the other kids. But he needs to be able to ask for it, which he can't do because of his anxiety.

So he's only got the class teacher, who he doesn't trust, who is also teaching 30 other kids. There's a couple of kids with some kind of ND going on who are constantly being sent out of class, but not before they've disrupted the class. One of whom has physically hurt my son on two occasions when the teachers backs are turned, so that's why he doesn't feel safe. All of these children need more help than the school can offer. I don't blame the teachers, schools are underfunded.

More adults in the classrooms would be my solution. TAs and student teachers to give support, more SEN staff. Earlier intervention, earlier diagnosis (my son is on a 3 year waiting list), a clearer ehcp process that doesn't rely on you being at crisis point with a child who can't access school before you can get help. More mental health support for children as well.

And i agree with op on the days my ds can't get to school because he's having bloody huge panic attacks, we are left to look at bbc bitesize or play online maths games. I haven't got a clue how to teach. I don't know what to do.

My own mental health is breaking down as a result of all this, but I've got no hope of any kind of help for myself on the NHS.

As an autistic mother of autistic children I could have done a far better job at a moments notice!

For your child, maybe, but can you speak for every child with learning differences? Speaking as a dyslexic person who actively dislikes some of the "dyslexia friendly" fonts, you cant please all of the people all of the time.

I’m sorry but I don’t believe this is as common as is suggested.

I was painted as a lazy unengaged mother who did not have her child’s best interests at heart.
They thought I was saying “oh you poor little dear, go back to bed, I’ll bring you hot chocolate and lovely films to watch”. In reality my home life was traumatic enough to give me ptsd.

Teachers are not best placed to judge this, with their usual lack of knowledge of ND and current poor opinion of parents.
The only teacher in my son’s school life who understood him and where I was coming from was the mother of an autistic child. None of the others came close to understanding what he needed. This teacher managed very well just by understanding autism.

Not short sighted at all. That was the point I was making (last para) and was trying to get the OP to see. School is there to provide more than exam passes.

To suggest that there is no point paying to educate someone who won’t repay it by joining the workforce is extreme though theoretically accurate.

You could ask what’s the point of expensive specialist provision for children with severe or complex disabilities who’ll never work. Even the argument that taking them off their parents’ hands allows them to work and pay tax doesn’t stack up because the vast majority of those parents won’t pay enough tax to cover the cost of their child’s education, and parental carer benefits of having them at home would be a tiny fraction of the cost of educating them.

I'm an ex-teacher.

I taught hybrid lessons during Covid. Hybrid - some students in the classroom and some attending via Zoom or teams.

They need a massive extra amount of effort to make them successful and this is only possible for some lessons.

So for example, having students join via zoom for a swimming lesson, (PE) science practical (doing the experiment), music lesson (playing the ukulele or drums) or DT lesson (making a bird box) just does not work.

There are whole swathes of what schools teach that really do require in person and if parents are home educating then ideally the child does get access to at a minimum to opportunity to do some kind of sport and play or make music.

In addition, the smaller the child the harder it is for zoom/teams lessons to be effective. Teaching reception remotely didn't work. So much of it is about fine motor skills and developing handwriting etc through the toys that are available.

If you have an autistic child, getting them to join a reception "lesson" of going on an autumn walk and discussing what they notice and picking up leaves etc to use in a collage to be made later is almost completely pointless.

Even in my subject, maths, and at my level, secondary, one person co-ordinating online and in person is incredibly difficult. There's a reason most places that do it now have a technical team (churches, etc)

If the tech goes down, you don't necessarily notice as you are busy in the classroom. You rely on the remote attendees texting you to let you know and then you have to stop what you are doing and tell the people in the classroom to talk amongst themselves while you spend 5 mins sorting it out.

I've done it. It's shit for both the online people and the in person people.

"Teachers.... with their usual lack of knowledge of ND and poor opinion of parents"
How does this help, OP? Many teachers on here, including me, have discussed what we're doing and how much work and effort goes into this, so please don't dismiss the entire profession.
It's really not helpful and it's certainly not accurate.

Politicians in recent decades have understandably aimed for education to be the same experience regardless of where you live rather than allow schools to decide what they teach and how. The old system would have benefitted some kids because an individual teacher’s approach and curriculum would have suited or interested them.

The modern education system is about preparing kids for the next stage with added testing so that politicians can turn kids into statistics and congratulate themselves when the kids achieve well because that’s their goal of the education system.

But teachers are just that - teachers. They aren’t social workers, trained to deal with children coming from traumatic home environments such as the one you came from, and the fall out from that.

Teachers are not best placed to judge this, with their usual lack of knowledge of ND

I read on here that someone spent ONE afternoon covering special need in their teacher training. I was shocked by that.

You're denying the experience of many teachers and pastoral staff who engage with families daily. There are families who do not prioritise school attendance. There are families where school is seen as optional. There are families where the smallest excuse means they miss school for extended periods.

This assertion that teachers have no knowledge of SEND is also not my experience. Perhaps I'm over estimating my, colleagues, but we are regularly given training, possible strategies to support and information from the SENCO. The flip side is that parents then expect staff to meet an ever increasing list of expectations. 8 children in one of my classes have an EHCP. None have a TA. It's literally impossible and I am failing them, but that really isn't my fault. Parents shout about their legal rights but I can't physically make the board the 3 different colours specified in each EHCP.

What strategies did suggest to school?

EBSA is a huge issue, the children need funded MH support, not a higher workload on schools.

I have MA in comparative education, am a trained teacher and am obsessed with school systems etc.

If I could re-design schools in this country (with budget lol) I would:

1. Make all class sizes smaller - let's say 20.
2. Introduce nurture groups into all primary settings - see nurtureuk.org This would help so many kids who didn't get the early input they needed or who are struggling socially and behaviourally.
3. Take inclusion seriously. Fund & train "special" teachers like they do in Finland. Have them in class alongside the regular teacher. Have "special" classes too for kids not able to access regular class. Do this in primary and secondary.
4. Make secondary schools much smaller. They are too big and overwhelming for your average kid, let alone kids with SEND.
5. Be ok with different 'tracks' for different kids in upper secondary, don't force all kids through the same curriculum. take this responsibility seriously and ensure all kids leave with the best qualifications for them.
6. Value all subjects and all 'tracks'. Ensure children get access to practical skills, arts and humanities as well as english, maths and STEM.
7. Pay teachers more -- let's say starting salary of £40k. feels like you should be paid more than average for this very difficult job.

So you should be. Most of us have had far more training than that.

Only 3 in 10 autistic adults are employed so the school system is failing them after they finish school as well.

Thank you, @Hercisback1 .
This is very much my experience too.

"But for loads of children being off task and being educated imperfectly is much better than the education they can currently access"

Well if you think logging on to a lesson then playing games / watching YouTube is better than what they get now just home educate them / buy them a tablet I guess!

I also think we are seeing a rise in parents who have completely unrealistic expectations, and for whom nothing other than a completely bespoke education will do. I’ve also seen children having great times in school when their parents are convinced they are miserable.

And I think the rise of home education is not necessarily a good thing. I’m aghast at how flippantly some people suggest it.

Teachers are not best placed to judge this, with their usual lack of knowledge of ND and current poor opinion of parents.

Teachers have a huge workload and, at secondary school, teach huge numbers of students. I teach very nearly 300. I'm in a grammar school, but even so, I teach many, many students with SEND of various kinds. Memorising the recommended ways of dealing with and best catering to the individual (and sometines conflicting) needs of each one of those students across 11 classes and applying that knowledge while trying to teach a class of 30 is verging on impossible, especially in a school with real behaviour problems.

Teachers' poor opinion of (some) parents is usually justified and, in my experience, usually has nothing to do with SEND.

I think it would make sense for there to be an online school which streams lessons for children who can't attend school, but I don't think this should really be implemented in mainstream schools because it would completely undermine the classroom experience for those children who are able to attend normally. Learning should be an interactive and social experience for most children, and I wouldn't want to lose that. We just need to provide better options for those kids who can't cope with that.

We're currently spending vast amounts of money on 1:1 tuition for kids who aren't attending school. I'm sure that this resource could be better allocated to provide appropriate online provision for these children.

Oh it is.

I've just has a count of how many poor attenders their are in my school. Snapshot as of last week - around 280 out of a cohort of 1260 children. My school has a particularly bad attendance problem so isn't typical, but massive numbers of parents who just aren't sending their child into school enough.

A good half of these 280 either have genuine reasons, or didn't have genuine reasons but after some support and pressure being placed their attendance is now improving.

The rest, over 100 children, have parents who are just allowing the low attendance, for a multitude if reasons that I (as attendance lead) don't believe.

I'm also the safeguarding lead. The majority of these families also require parenting support. However most won't accept that.

I'm also SENCO trained. And Menth Health Lead. But parents will still try to tell me that lowering attendance expectations is what's needed here. It isn't.