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Let’s talk about how we can make changes in schools to improve them for everyone involved.

232 replies

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 11:24

Having binge-read the WFH/attendance thread, I feel it important to have a positive discussion about changes schools can make that will improve things for everyone.

As a mother of autistic children, a couple of whom have school refused to the point of us being threatened with court and fines, and feeling totally unsupported by school, and ending up home educating because there felt like no other options, which also meant claiming more benefits to be able to do that.

I feel there are alternative options that would help schools become less chaotic, ease the stress on SN families (much of which comes from gaslighting and lack of support from within school) and improve outcomes for most children involved.

Lack of special school spaces is obviously an issue that must be addressed at some point, but for this thread let’s focus on mainstream schools, which seem to be really struggling right now.

At my youngest child’s school there was a high % of ND children, mainly because the local choice of schools is a draconian academy which manages out children with support needs, and this school, which is now riddled with attendance and behavioural issues. When I deregistered my son he was the 11th child in his year group to be removed, in a small school with under 60 per year group. My son’s attendance was nearing 50%.

What would have worked for him? Streaming lessons. Using technology already set up in the school during Covid lockdown. Allowing my son and others like him to login and register his attendance, and attend school and in a way that he could cope with. If he felt he genuinely had a choice to access education in this way he would have thrived. In days where stress levels were lower he could attend school and register as normal. If the day got too much he could come home and log in for afternoon lessons without it affecting his attendance and worrying schools, OFSTED and government. With this arrangement I know that his attendance, and that of loads like him, would be 100%. He wants to learn, but he can’t always do it in school.
Edited to add: this would also work for children who are ill who should be at home instead of spreading their germs to everyone!

I also think this plan could go further in dealing with increasing behavioural issues in the classroom, by being clear to parents that any issues (a lot which will be caused by unsupported SN) and their child will do lessons in a quiet room, streamed to a device with headphones (isolation room was often full of children who couldn’t cope in a loud classroom and who calmed down once there), and if the behaviour persists they can go home to learn there - if school is then not accessed they can be chased for their attendance, because a workable option is available.

Schools can then have a clearer line of acceptable behaviour with a real solution that’s not up for debate. At the moment lines are blurred and behaviour remains a big problem.

So rather than talking about the problem, can we have a discussion about potential solutions?

It’s depressing reading the frequent threads fighting teachers and/or children and/or parents.
Teachers are understandably not coping and are often blaming pupils and parents, children are not coping - as seen with rising rates of mental illness and poor attendance, parents are not coping because, especially those of us with SN children, we can see that they are not supported and we take the brunt of that once home. The system isn’t working for anyone.

So what can be done, because unless someone addresses the issues, instead of constantly pointing fingers at any other problem, this is only going to get worse for teachers, parents and pupils alike.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:07

CatrionaBalfour · 23/02/2025 17:02

I teach in a non selective state school. It's strange because we have migrants and refugees with little English who are thriving, children in care who do amazingly well, and many with all manner of physical and emotional difficulties who thrive.
However, what's happened in the last few years is an absolute explosion in anxiety. The number of children who need additional support, extra help or special provision is mind boggling.
Passes to leave the room early, toilet passes, time out passes - it used to be rare, now it's increasingly common.
I don't know what the solution is.

My personal suspicious is its screen withdrawal syndrome, in many cases.

MyUmberSeal · 23/02/2025 17:08

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 16:48

If schools in developing worlds can overcome the difficulties they have, surely we, with fairly advanced technology at our fingertips most of the time, can do something?

Schools in developing worlds don’t have children who consider education ‘traumatising’ though.

Absolutely bang on 👆🫶

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 17:09

frozendaisy · 23/02/2025 16:45

OP would your suggestions work?
They might work for your children but would others really work and listen if they were on headphones in a quiet room?
Why should teachers have to stream their lessons?
Teachers like to see their pupils they can get a lot from body language, if you think your child will learn better online there are online schools.

So who will be responsible if the child doesn’t listen with headphones on? You can bet some parents will march into the school insisting that all the accommodations made weren’t working and it was still the teacher’s fault for not following up or checking. Who would want to go into teaching then?

And what about able kids? What about them?

We would all love a bespoke education system for our kids. For us I think it would be better if all subjects were streamed. Our kids would thrive, and do in the science/maths lessons which are. But English, humanities, arts not so much. But it would be better for ours if they were all streamed. We could afford private school but we choose not to because our kids learn so much socially, economically, emotionally being in main stream comprehensive.

We teach our children (now teen boys) to be compassionate and patient with other students in their classes who are ND. They take it in their stride, they try to help, our youngster shaved his hair down in solidarity with his classmate going through chemo, our eldest has tried to explain “that you can’t throw chairs” to other struggling students.

And they do this because we have guided them to be understanding. It absolutely is about parenting. It’s about parenting and working with the teachers.

What you are expecting OP is just impossible.

Teenagers are cock sure, horny, angry, positive, funny, attitude heavy, wannabe cool and fit in, unsure of themselves, amazing and crazy individuals.

Ours don’t bat an eyelid about accepting others (they call it “the isms” to define autism, ADHD etc as a term of acceptance it’s not derogatory), they care if their classmates struggle even if they aren’t friends. Because we have raised them to be kind.

We have just over two years of secondary left, we are just going through GCSEs with eldest right now, it’s fucking intense and hard work, even with an able, bright teen we are picking up the bits school can’t do. But we don’t argue with the school, or teachers, demand extra lunchtime lessons or expect anything bespoke because it’s a main stream comprehensive.

The vast majority of students are not ND and they need educating as well.

There are no solutions. We all have to do the best for our own kids, if you can push your kids to understand they need to try and accommodate others then all the better.

But if you send your children to main stream it’s going to be full of other teenagers and expecting them to not be teenagers is imaginary. Do you teach your children that others are in the class to learn? Do you think about the other children, the ones who are able and not ND?

Teenagers are fucking arseholes, they are even ours and they are ok ones. Teachers have a responsibility to 30 of them each class. It should be equal but we, and they, all know it isn’t.

We all have to pick up the slack as parents that might be more for some than others.

By all means campaign, talk to your MP, raise funds for your children’s school to put the measures you desire in place. This is the only way it will happen in time for your children. I assume once your children are 16/18+ you won’t have any interest so you need to do things IRL now and locally. Waiting for the world to change around you will take far too long.

I am not trying to be mean, just honest, we have taught our teens to accommodate others, and they do. Ours children’s secondary could push them further, be more inspiring but we can’t have that unless we pay. So here we are right now.

Honestly I understand all of this.

None of my dc had behavioural issues in school. Their classrooms were not overly boisterous either.

The problems for them were mainly sensory issues (noise, uniform), the number of people around them, some teachers being really poor quality and shouting, pressure from yr 6 sats onwards, I mean more pressure than I had put on me doing A levels in the early 90s! Why should changing this cost a fortune, or take away opportunities from other children?

There are so many children who don’t behave badly in school but are unable to attend due to trauma, and they all have a right to access education. All of the individual education plans in the world can’t fix things if the problem for these children is being in the school itself.

The government either need to get to the root of it and fix it, or in the meantime they need to take the pressure off attendance so families aren’t being threatened when there’s nothing they can do to fix the situation.

I completely agree with others that smartphones and SM are a big issue here, and I think all schools should have a ban on them, and would support a ban on under 16s having smartphones, but this is the world we currently live in, and we need to find better ways to meet more children’s needs rather than accepting that SN children can just get the dregs.

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

stickygotstuck · 23/02/2025 17:09

stickygotstuck · 23/02/2025 17:06

I've heard this argument before.

Except, the current training offers no experience from anyone at all. Just platitudes and research that very, very few parents and children agree with.

I'm not saying just one parent at random, but something planned and balanced. However, you'll be hard pushed to talk to, say, 3 parents of e.g. 3 able autistic children who will disagree on the basic things that would help their children.

I'm also thinking of meetings with teachers telling parents they know what their specific child struggles with more than said parent. As a teacher, you could do a lot worse than listening to that parent.

Sorry, my quote disappeared. That was to @AllProperTeaIsTheft re. using parental knowledge.

CatrionaBalfour · 23/02/2025 17:10

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:07

My personal suspicious is its screen withdrawal syndrome, in many cases.

Well, you could be right. I really can't fathom it. I've talked to so many students and parents and can't seem to get an answer.

Headingforholidays · 23/02/2025 17:10

Things we have done at my secondary school to try and reduce issues for anxious students, especially those with ASD, are:

  • flexible uniform - lots wear PE kit
  • time out passes
  • sensory room
  • adjusted timetables
  • anxious learners space to study
  • queue jump pass for lunch

It has helped some students, but not all. However, it has also meant we have become known locally for being supportive of SEN students which means more and more apply and name us on EHCPs which of course makes everything more stretched and less good for everyone, so feels a bit like you can't win!

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:11

Headingforholidays · 23/02/2025 17:10

Things we have done at my secondary school to try and reduce issues for anxious students, especially those with ASD, are:

  • flexible uniform - lots wear PE kit
  • time out passes
  • sensory room
  • adjusted timetables
  • anxious learners space to study
  • queue jump pass for lunch

It has helped some students, but not all. However, it has also meant we have become known locally for being supportive of SEN students which means more and more apply and name us on EHCPs which of course makes everything more stretched and less good for everyone, so feels a bit like you can't win!

What happens when these kids start work? Are we preparing them for that?

Snorlaxo · 23/02/2025 17:12

Lack of special school spaces is obviously an issue that must be addressed at some point, but for this thread let’s focus on mainstream schools, which seem to be really struggling right now.

More places in special schools, PRUs etc would automatically improve things for the adults and kids in mainstream as well as the child who was in a more suitable setting. The classroom environment may be calmer (depending on what behaviour was displayed ) and the adults able to focus more on other kids. I think that you would see results quickly.

Hercisback1 · 23/02/2025 17:13

Headingforholidays · 23/02/2025 17:10

Things we have done at my secondary school to try and reduce issues for anxious students, especially those with ASD, are:

  • flexible uniform - lots wear PE kit
  • time out passes
  • sensory room
  • adjusted timetables
  • anxious learners space to study
  • queue jump pass for lunch

It has helped some students, but not all. However, it has also meant we have become known locally for being supportive of SEN students which means more and more apply and name us on EHCPs which of course makes everything more stretched and less good for everyone, so feels a bit like you can't win!

Snap.

You also get a lot of push back from parents. "X doesn't have to wear a blazer, so why does my child". Parents struggle to understand even when we explain different needs. They want the rules to be "the same for everyone".

CatrionaBalfour · 23/02/2025 17:16

I've worked with many traumatised children over the years, OP. What works usually is a very supportive environment, clear boundaries, high expectations and a safe space where necessary. I teach children who have arrived from Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq (to name a few). I have a girl who has arrived from Libya this term with no English.
This has been the case for at least 25 years, so we've dealt with it successfully. The current problems run deeper and there's definitely a distinct change.
Oh, and we've got 6 teaching vacancies that we can't fill, so that's an additional problem.

Headingforholidays · 23/02/2025 17:16

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:11

What happens when these kids start work? Are we preparing them for that?

Maybe not but staying at home and not attending school definitely isn't going to help them work, so it has to be better than that.

CatrionaBalfour · 23/02/2025 17:19

I hear you, @Headingforholidays . We do all that as well. Some are excused uniform and wear noise cancelling headphones as well.
We also have a sensory room where they can go to have some time out.

CaptainFuture · 23/02/2025 17:19

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 16:48

If schools in developing worlds can overcome the difficulties they have, surely we, with fairly advanced technology at our fingertips most of the time, can do something?

Schools in developing worlds don’t have children who consider education ‘traumatising’ though.

This. Is school based trauma a particular Western world issue?
What are the actual traumas?

PlumBear · 23/02/2025 17:19

Having just left the profession after 5 years I can honestly say in my experience, or certainly in the school I’ve just had the misfortune to work in, it was the non-SEN kids who suffered the most. There was so much disruptive behaviour from SEN students but because they had to be in the classroom, teaching and learning was disrupted for the majority.
In one of the last lessons I taught, a year 7 SEN student was hurling pens around the classroom at other students. She also threw 2 pens directly off my face at close range. She then threw one in another boy’s eye. A non-SEN student was so distressed by the other student’s behaviour that she was begging ‘please miss, please can you make her leave.’ She was scared she’d be hit next. I’d followed all the school’s procedures - 3 warnings - and a ‘relocation’. The support staff didn’t show up to get her for almost half an hour, by which time the lesson was in tatters. That’s one tiny example from one lesson from one day. The disruption is unparalled. SEN students have so much focus and funding in relation to non-SEN students. It’s unworkable. And it’s not fair on non-SEN students.

DragonFly98 · 23/02/2025 17:19

LittleHangleton · 23/02/2025 15:50

  • make families less scared of social care and early help, when they and their child need help
  • make parents realise, as Covid lockdowns taught us, that the social aspect of being in school is just as important as grades. Children working from home and in isolation is not the answer and should be actively avoided.
  • fund more children's mental health education. Not necessarily support. I feel the current generation of children need teaching the resilience needed to cope with periods of mental ill-health.
  • parents need to have more respect for the knowledge and skills of teachers and headteachers. Even when it's not what they want to hear.

How about make adults such as yourself realise the social aspect of school is detrimental to many ND children. My children thrived in local down, happy, engaged in learning and were ahead of their peers when they returned.
It is very ignorant and dismissive to make a statement such as yours.

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 17:20

LittleHangleton · 23/02/2025 16:47

"school based trauma"

That needs unpicking.

I don't believe the answer here is how to allow more children to not access their full time education in school. I believe the answer comes from making schools brilliant places to be so that coming to school is the expectation for all.

Some of that will start from challenging the idea that because a child has had trauma, they are therefore Unable. Capital letter intended. The idea that a negative experience will be forever reflected in what happens next and they'll be limited and unable to do things as a result. This goes back to my point earlier about MH education and taught resilience.

In my view, "school based trauma" would be challenged as a concept. It's false to say that means a child cannot grow, change, learn to thrive despite their trauma. The right environment will support that. Making schools brilliant places to be.

There's also a question here about raising expectation for SEND / ND children. I don't feel comfortable with the notion that they just deserve a lesser deal (ie not going to school, bring isolated, not socialising, not being taught by trained subject teachers) because they have an additional need. In my view teaching these children at home, not with subject specialists, not having the teacher there to resolve misconceptions and ask questions to, without learning the social aspects of growing up that friendships and fallouts teach, without the basic preparation for adulthood like routines, rules, punctuality, the need to show up etc. Missing all this on the grounds of SEND needs means lowering the expectations for these children unnecessarily. They can do all these things and achieve highly. They need support and scaffolding to make these things happen,rather than permission to not have yo do this learning.

Yes I completely agree with you.

However when you have a child like this there is currently very little you can do to help your child, because that relies on others being willing to support them to be able to go into school consistently and allow them to reach their potential.

There’s a huge disconnect between saying a child must develop more resilience and them actually being to do so.

We’re constantly told that education is underfunded, so presumably developing a better system for all is off the table right now, but this leaves behind potentially brilliant students who struggle to get an education.

So what could be done to improve outcomes that maybe accepts that in this imperfect world maybe some children will do better not being forced into an environment that harms them?

For whatever reason there are more children coming into the system with SN. Some threads have reported as high as 30% in some classrooms. This isn’t going to go away any time soon, and unless ways are found to ameliorate the situation we’re looking at a crumbling system that not only lets down the SN children (as it is doing now), but all children.

OP posts:
Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:22

Headingforholidays · 23/02/2025 17:16

Maybe not but staying at home and not attending school definitely isn't going to help them work, so it has to be better than that.

I’m amazed at who is calling the shots here

StormingNorman · 23/02/2025 17:23

You seem keen for schooling outside of an overwhelming building @SchoolsMustChange

How about the Department of Education and CAHMS open up a fully online school to act as a digital pupil referral unit?

It would be fairly cost effective as it could be run nationally; no need to confine it to catchment areas. It could also combine education with MH sessions and allow students to tailor their education in line with what they can cope with e.g., a reduced number of GCSE’s.

The cons are that it requires parental supervision and easily overwhelmed children are encouraged to stay within their comfort zone and will likely breed agrophobic nervous adults who are ill prepared for the workplace. But it will get them through exams.

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:24

StormingNorman · 23/02/2025 17:23

You seem keen for schooling outside of an overwhelming building @SchoolsMustChange

How about the Department of Education and CAHMS open up a fully online school to act as a digital pupil referral unit?

It would be fairly cost effective as it could be run nationally; no need to confine it to catchment areas. It could also combine education with MH sessions and allow students to tailor their education in line with what they can cope with e.g., a reduced number of GCSE’s.

The cons are that it requires parental supervision and easily overwhelmed children are encouraged to stay within their comfort zone and will likely breed agrophobic nervous adults who are ill prepared for the workplace. But it will get them through exams.

What’s the point in exams if no workplace after? I’m not trying to be difficult or nasty, but it feels like the thinking here is so short sighted. If we have an ‘online school’ I reckon 99% of pupils would suddenly develop anxiety and not go to school, because staying home would be an option.

Hercisback1 · 23/02/2025 17:28

Oak academy exists.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 23/02/2025 17:29

DragonFly98 · 23/02/2025 17:19

How about make adults such as yourself realise the social aspect of school is detrimental to many ND children. My children thrived in local down, happy, engaged in learning and were ahead of their peers when they returned.
It is very ignorant and dismissive to make a statement such as yours.

I think most of us do recognise that, but this is a thread about how to make schools better (for kids with SEND and generally). If being in a school with other kids is inherently detrimental to a child, there's not a lot schools can do about that.

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 17:31

Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 16:48

If schools in developing worlds can overcome the difficulties they have, surely we, with fairly advanced technology at our fingertips most of the time, can do something?

Schools in developing worlds don’t have children who consider education ‘traumatising’ though.

I quite agree.

So why isn’t there an enquiry going on to discover why that’s the case here?

Why are we still finger pointing and blaming parents who desperately want their children to be in school?

It’s not good enough to say that parents are allowing it - that’s not the case and it’s convenient but lazy to dismiss it as this.

My H and I couldn’t physically get near my older son, let alone get him dressed or into the car to school, as he’d attack us. He had no phone, ate a good diet, played outside, had the sort of childhood I had. We involved ourselves with services, who did nothing but accuse us of poor parenting - which funnily enough was not true or helpful. We tried to work with school, shared relevant information and diagnoses, we told to “just get him in”.

I and many others would fully welcome an investigation as to why thousands of children are finding school intolerable. In fact I can’t understand why it hasn’t happened already, this has been going on for at least 15 years.

All we get though is blame and the odd “it’s down to parents WFH” or “term time holidays” to avoid the actual vital task of discovering what has gone wrong.

I just wish there wasn’t such reluctance to find some way for our children to be educated in some way. I don’t want to HE. I want my child in school, but right now I can’t make that happen.

OP posts:
CatrionaBalfour · 23/02/2025 17:33

@SchoolsMustChange what was the conclusion of the Dr and/or other professionals who saw your son? Any useful conclusion and diagnosis?

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 17:34

Hercisback1 · 23/02/2025 16:58

Have you tried private school or colleges as an external candidate? Many will refuse because of the staffing required sadly.

A local private school used to do this so that children could pay a reduced fee to sit GCSEs, but stopped as the number of HE children grew too much for them to support it.

OP posts:
Wildflowers99 · 23/02/2025 17:35

SchoolsMustChange · 23/02/2025 17:31

I quite agree.

So why isn’t there an enquiry going on to discover why that’s the case here?

Why are we still finger pointing and blaming parents who desperately want their children to be in school?

It’s not good enough to say that parents are allowing it - that’s not the case and it’s convenient but lazy to dismiss it as this.

My H and I couldn’t physically get near my older son, let alone get him dressed or into the car to school, as he’d attack us. He had no phone, ate a good diet, played outside, had the sort of childhood I had. We involved ourselves with services, who did nothing but accuse us of poor parenting - which funnily enough was not true or helpful. We tried to work with school, shared relevant information and diagnoses, we told to “just get him in”.

I and many others would fully welcome an investigation as to why thousands of children are finding school intolerable. In fact I can’t understand why it hasn’t happened already, this has been going on for at least 15 years.

All we get though is blame and the odd “it’s down to parents WFH” or “term time holidays” to avoid the actual vital task of discovering what has gone wrong.

I just wish there wasn’t such reluctance to find some way for our children to be educated in some way. I don’t want to HE. I want my child in school, but right now I can’t make that happen.

My guess is they do it because they can.

If you know 3, 4, 5 other kids all staying home because they’re ‘anxious’ and acting in this manner, it becomes a viable option. Ultimately if I had done this my dad would’ve manhandled me into the car and forced me there, but that’s seen an unacceptable now. And frankly I wouldn’t have tried because it never occurred to me - it wasn’t the norm. I think there’s an element of social contagion, because there’s no ultimate deterrent for kids now.