Vote, Now we are a few years down the line, do you think brexit should have happened ?

[Rainbowdeer]

Personally I say no, even though I voted to leave, at least I can look back and say this was a mistake
if the vote was to happen now I would vote remain

my reasons for voting at the time was because, I wanted this country to be the captain of its own country and not to have to follow whatever another country told us too
basically Independence

also we were also lied to that, this would really improve the NHS which was clearly aload of shit looking back

I can at least own my mistake saying voted leave but, I now I think it was the wrong choice

I also think the media are a lot to blame, by making out no way will people vote to leave
And that only racists will vote leave

the whole country was in shock the next morning when the results came out

@Simonjt that is clearly not what I am saying. But every EU country IS significantly majority white. And many treat their citizens who are ethnic minorities (within those countries) pretty awfully. Freedom of Movement within the EU does not include any black or brown majority countries, who we owe much more to. Since the government will always want to keep some limit on immigration, It's also common sense that by having freedom of movement for the EU, the numbers from eg commonwealth African countries would be even further suppressed.

That does not feel right to me. Does it feel right to you?

I am not denying the huge levels of repugnant racism in the Brexit campaign, but that's a parallel issue.

And that's why you were happy to stop free movement into 27 EU countries for people in the UK?

No, that was part of the reason (though I think it would have been enough actually!) .
I also believe that institutions at the EU level are too big to ensure accountability and a true democratic voice for individuals, or to make decisions effectively and efficiently, or to reflect to a reasonable degree the stance or interests of people in Britain. (For example it concerns me greatly that many EU countries had far stronger right wing views and political parties).

Look, it is a hard to know what IS the right size.... you see that in the tensions trying to establish the right level of unity or independence across the different parts of the United Kingdom too..... in determining which activities and decision-making should be on a local level and which on a regional/national level. But the UK strikes me as about as big as it can get, without losing all efficiency and accountability.

You make it sound as if the UK had no voice or power in the EU decision making process, okay elected MEP Farage failed to show up for most meetings but that is not the EU's fault

I find it difficult to engage in any Brexit debate. Rather than rational, informed discussion, we so often have emotional, vindictive, repetitive cliches. Do people who say the people who voted to leave ‘were lied to’ ever stop to consider what they are actually saying in that despite what they think many highly intelligent people voted to leave the European Union, people that were informed by media other than the supposed media that put forward the perceived lies.
i do understand that for many it is an emotive issue but so are sovereignty and national independence emotive for many people, and not just English. To label everyone that voted leave as racists is very simplistic. There is racism everywhere! We see disturbingly the rise of the far right in some European countries, related to the movement of non white people fleeing conflict and economic crisis across the world. But UK citizens, bemoan their loss of FOM to countries that they still have access to and are still welcome in. Yes trade has been affected, in time the UK will regain that trade deficit with trade deals made internationally and with Europe. Anyone that feels that leaving the European Union would have instantly benefited the UK is surely naive and those that expected to see immediate benefits were maybe lied to. Think beyond your FOM and look at the bureaucratic mess that is the European Commission, the rise of the populist movements across the Union and the fact that measures taken by the Union to counter the rise of the far right border on undemocratic.

I was talking about the individual. It's obvious that for the individual you are far further from your opinions or your vote mattering as part of an 'ever closer' EU. It is also much harder to hold anyone accountable.

This is on every level of governance. EG the Scots haven't voted conservative for over half a century, but have been governed by conservatives over and over. For that matter, they also voted strongly to stay in the EU, but what they wanted didn't matter again, because of the scale of the governing body. There is a problem with that.

And yes, of course the UK had some influence in Europe, disproportionate even. However, it is also obvious that's its ability to move and decide for itself is vastly diminished by being in a pact of over 20 other member states, all negotiating for their own interests.

It's a hugely complex question- where and how power should be held, at what scale. I'm just a little tired of the careless narrative that anybody who decided the right scale was on the national level, must be a raging ignoramus and/or racist.

I also find this debate is always very short term. (How do we feel now/ x years later.... what about x or Y cost or benefit that's affecting someone now).... the decision of what level or scale to delineate your governance should be made for the centuries not fir the short term.

One development almost all the EU announcements are in English/American language.

Although it should be noted that total UK exports have grown at a similar rate to other European economies because the UK has outperformed those economies in services exports since Brexit - offsetting the estimated fall in UK goods exports (the £27bn estimate only relates to goods).

You agree then that without Brexit, the UK's economy would be in a far healthier state?

Not necessarily and not in a 'far healthier state' - look at the rest of Europe. If I remember correctly that estimate you quoted represented a fall of 6% in goods exports - which had largely been offset by services exports. Arguably, the UK's 'boom' in services exports is a Brexit bonus.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cost-statistics-numbers-five-years-eu-b2689655.html

I think joining was a mistake France and Germany never wanted us in their club, France blocked us several times. The EU was moving towards a federal Europe with more and more power centred in the EU and our independence being reduced, it was also becoming unwieldy with so many countries joining, each with their own agenda. I like the Europeans as friendly nations but we don't have to be joined at the hip.

The uk vaccine development was done under EU rules as we were still members at time. So it wasn’t a Brexit benefit at all.