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Pat888 · 10/02/2025 06:29

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 09/02/2025 23:40

When do we put the people who do the right thing first?

We don't. The point of human rights is that we all have them, not just "the people who do the right thing", and we get prioritised according to need. This patient needed somewhere to live prior to discharge, unlike the other patients on the ward.

It shouldn't have to be a court case- it is a medical decision. A team of medical professionals make an informed decision she needs to leave and a place is identified and she is moved- sedated if necessary.

Sedating someone and moving them against their will would be assault and kidnapping, both criminal offences, unless the patient is under section. This patient was not under section. Committing criminal offences is not "a medical decision" and, if you think that evicting a patient is expensive, the civil and criminal defence fees, fines, and compensation for assaulting and kidnapping a patient would be considerably higher and cost the medical staff their careers.

The thing about human rights is that if the unlikeable people are denied their rights, the rest of us can be too after that. It's called "setting legal precedent".

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I wonder how other countries cope with these situations. I'm sure there is a lot we could learn.

Perhaps we sign an agreement that we will follow instruction whcih might be to consider other people's wellbeing as well as our own whilst in for treatment - or along these lines.

soupyspoon · 10/02/2025 07:44

Sukhareva · 09/02/2025 22:36

They overlap a lot...

No, they really don't.

Quite opposite presentations in many aspects.

That's not to say there aren't people who have both conditions, or course there will be like with many other medical conditions.

But autism in women is characterised by being highly sensitive, hyper-aware of the feelings of others, rejection-sensitivity dysphoria, a quiet and rather shy disposition generally not being entitled and demanding (in fact usually putting their needs last), being highly empathetic, needing lots of downtime alone to pursue interests and reset emotionally (the opposite of these personality disorders often resulting in narcissism and attention seeking and selfishness).

It's completely false to claim that the two are remotely similar based on the medical research. Some ignorant people may conflate them and misdiagnose. Some people with personality disorders may be seeking autism diagnoses incorrectly (or indeed, even some clinicians providing such an erroneous diagnosis because it's more palatable to the patient and/ or their family) but in reality they are very different conditions with different causes and different symptoms.

Theres so much wrong here and in your previous post but I havent got the energy to correct it. This is just not correct

Sukhareva · 10/02/2025 07:45

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 09/02/2025 22:45

But autism in women is characterised by being highly sensitive, hyper-aware of the feelings of others, rejection-sensitivity dysphoria, a quiet and rather shy disposition

This does not describe me or any of the autistic women I know, and I do not think you will find that description in DSM-5 diagnostic criteria

I didn't say it was part of the diagnostic criteria. I'm describing common manifestation.

None of the behaviour/ characteristic that the woman in the article is described to have resembles anything in the diagnostic criteria for autism.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General health
Kendodd · 10/02/2025 07:57

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 09/02/2025 23:40

When do we put the people who do the right thing first?

We don't. The point of human rights is that we all have them, not just "the people who do the right thing", and we get prioritised according to need. This patient needed somewhere to live prior to discharge, unlike the other patients on the ward.

It shouldn't have to be a court case- it is a medical decision. A team of medical professionals make an informed decision she needs to leave and a place is identified and she is moved- sedated if necessary.

Sedating someone and moving them against their will would be assault and kidnapping, both criminal offences, unless the patient is under section. This patient was not under section. Committing criminal offences is not "a medical decision" and, if you think that evicting a patient is expensive, the civil and criminal defence fees, fines, and compensation for assaulting and kidnapping a patient would be considerably higher and cost the medical staff their careers.

The thing about human rights is that if the unlikeable people are denied their rights, the rest of us can be too after that. It's called "setting legal precedent".

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People are thrown out of hospital all the time though, visitors or people in A&E, the police are called if security can't get them out.

CruCru · 10/02/2025 08:06

Pat888 · 10/02/2025 06:29

I wonder how other countries cope with these situations. I'm sure there is a lot we could learn.

Perhaps we sign an agreement that we will follow instruction whcih might be to consider other people's wellbeing as well as our own whilst in for treatment - or along these lines.

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I have no idea whether this person would sign something like this … or would sign it and ignore it.

godmum56 · 10/02/2025 08:09

Kendodd · 10/02/2025 07:57

People are thrown out of hospital all the time though, visitors or people in A&E, the police are called if security can't get them out.

Show quote history

They are not considered to be in patients.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 10/02/2025 08:21

Kendodd · 10/02/2025 07:57

People are thrown out of hospital all the time though, visitors or people in A&E, the police are called if security can't get them out.

Show quote history

Those people have homes to go to.

looier · 10/02/2025 08:21

BDP/EUPD are both highly controversial diagnoses which many working in psychiatry and mental health, want to remove, as it pathologizes trauma:

www.madinamerica.com/2023/06/borderline-personality-disorder-no-longer-has-a-place-in-clinical-practice/

LuluBlakey1 · 10/02/2025 08:58

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 09/02/2025 23:40

When do we put the people who do the right thing first?

We don't. The point of human rights is that we all have them, not just "the people who do the right thing", and we get prioritised according to need. This patient needed somewhere to live prior to discharge, unlike the other patients on the ward.

It shouldn't have to be a court case- it is a medical decision. A team of medical professionals make an informed decision she needs to leave and a place is identified and she is moved- sedated if necessary.

Sedating someone and moving them against their will would be assault and kidnapping, both criminal offences, unless the patient is under section. This patient was not under section. Committing criminal offences is not "a medical decision" and, if you think that evicting a patient is expensive, the civil and criminal defence fees, fines, and compensation for assaulting and kidnapping a patient would be considerably higher and cost the medical staff their careers.

The thing about human rights is that if the unlikeable people are denied their rights, the rest of us can be too after that. It's called "setting legal precedent".

Edited
Show quote history

But it shouldn't be assault and kidnapping. She should have been sectioned.

Kendodd · 10/02/2025 09:07

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 09/02/2025 23:40

When do we put the people who do the right thing first?

We don't. The point of human rights is that we all have them, not just "the people who do the right thing", and we get prioritised according to need. This patient needed somewhere to live prior to discharge, unlike the other patients on the ward.

It shouldn't have to be a court case- it is a medical decision. A team of medical professionals make an informed decision she needs to leave and a place is identified and she is moved- sedated if necessary.

Sedating someone and moving them against their will would be assault and kidnapping, both criminal offences, unless the patient is under section. This patient was not under section. Committing criminal offences is not "a medical decision" and, if you think that evicting a patient is expensive, the civil and criminal defence fees, fines, and compensation for assaulting and kidnapping a patient would be considerably higher and cost the medical staff their careers.

The thing about human rights is that if the unlikeable people are denied their rights, the rest of us can be too after that. It's called "setting legal precedent".

Edited
Show quote history

But they are not prioritising according to need, we are prioritising this women over her victims.
If you put her needs on one side of the scale and all her victims needs, which might individually each be smaller than hers, on the other side of the scale, her victims needs, all added together are much greater than hers. And yet she is the one put first.

Kendodd · 10/02/2025 09:09

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 10/02/2025 08:21

Those people have homes to go to.

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Expect often the don't, homeless people often hang around hospitals. I get that they're not patients though.

Kendodd · 10/02/2025 09:10

Also, this women did have somewhere to go, she just didn't want to go there.

Gingernaut · 10/02/2025 09:11

LuluBlakey1 · 10/02/2025 08:58

But it shouldn't be assault and kidnapping. She should have been sectioned.

Show quote history

People with personality disorders can't be sectioned unless they become a danger to themselves or others

JennieTheZebra · 10/02/2025 09:35

@looier yes, this comes up every couple of years. I’ve seen a few cycles over the last 20 years from BPD to EUPD back to BPD… and I’m actually studying something similar (the relationship between femininity, society and psychiatric symptom expression). The issue is, is that as long as we have the society we have, we will need a name to describe what’s going on. BPD/EUPD were terms coined to replace neurosis and hysteria, but, in practice, they still fulfil that role and c-PTSD/“trauma informed” will do the same. I agree that as terms they’re deeply, deeply misogynistic but then so is our society and, honestly, I’d rather we work on the stigma that people with EUPD/BPD face or, if we’re feeling brave, on our society that allows such mind shattering traumas to happen to children, than play silly games with names or pretend people like that don’t exist.

Serencwtch · 10/02/2025 09:45

LuluBlakey1 · 10/02/2025 08:58

But it shouldn't be assault and kidnapping. She should have been sectioned.

Show quote history

There were no grounds to section her. In the article it states that she was assessed by psych liaison several times - they didn't section her.

You can't section someone because they don't behave in the way you want them to & can't section someone for being rude, annoying, costing too much money etc & most importantly you can't section someone to make them do something they don't want to do.

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 10/02/2025 09:55

Serencwtch · 10/02/2025 09:45

There were no grounds to section her. In the article it states that she was assessed by psych liaison several times - they didn't section her.

You can't section someone because they don't behave in the way you want them to & can't section someone for being rude, annoying, costing too much money etc & most importantly you can't section someone to make them do something they don't want to do.

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You may not be able to section someone, but there should be some way of dealing with the type of antisocial behaviour one of the people on a ward with her described in this thread. There does seem to be a real gap here (and I do think there probably could have been things done with the clutter, at least)

It’s not like the other patients could just have got up and moved somewhere else. Their needs matter just as much.

godmum56 · 10/02/2025 09:58

To point out that while this is unnacceptable for many many reasons, its also quite rare which is why it made the papers. In a career spanning around 30 years in various physical hospitals I came across this situation once. My job involved discharge planning and arranging so if it had been there I would have been involved.

butterfly0404 · 10/02/2025 10:00

She wouldn't meet legal criteria for detainment

butterfly0404 · 10/02/2025 10:02

godmum56 · 10/02/2025 09:58

To point out that while this is unnacceptable for many many reasons, its also quite rare which is why it made the papers. In a career spanning around 30 years in various physical hospitals I came across this situation once. My job involved discharge planning and arranging so if it had been there I would have been involved.

Edited

I've got 2 cases similar to this on my case load alone, I think J's case is extreme but most similar cases will not be reported

LollyPop89 · 10/02/2025 10:23

I've been reading through this thread and would like to add to it. I know Jessie, not as a friend. We attended primary school together. To the people stating that they were on the ward with her and she was unpleasant and made staff and other patients miserable, I feel so bad for you and the staff.

She started at my school when she was 9. She was taller than most people and that's not a bad thing. No-one can help how tall or short they are. However, this garnered a lot of teasing from the boys in our year. Her reaction to this teasing was to physically attack them. At 9 years old, I felt incredibly bad for her so I approached her with a hope that we could be friends.

I started talking to her. Bearing in mind I was about 4 foot 8 so I was a short kid. The smack she delivered to my head made my ears ring and almost knocked me sideways.

She didn't apologise or show any remorse. The sad part was that the boys still bullied her. I was still bullied too and she took the opportunity to join in the bullying when they weren't bullying her. We eventually bonded a little over Smash Hits magazine, but very often if I did something she didn't like, I would get a swift smack to any body part she could reach and so would the other girl who tried too.

After primary school she went to a specialist school in the area and I didn't see her again. I recognise her silhouette and her name hasn't been changed so I recognise her from Facebook. I'm sad this is her life and that she's been let down, but her treatment of staff and other vulnerable patients is unacceptable. And downright cruel.

Her mum allowed her to get away with stuff. And enabled the behaviour. I have autism and have experience with the mental health system and whilst it's not perfect, it's not an excuse to be cruel to staff. They get paid minimum wage and this pay is awful and they deserve more. Abuse should not be tolerated because of the job they choose.

godmum56 · 10/02/2025 10:25

butterfly0404 · 10/02/2025 10:02

I've got 2 cases similar to this on my case load alone, I think J's case is extreme but most similar cases will not be reported

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how big is your caseload? and what is your profession?

HipMax · 10/02/2025 10:31

CaptainBeanThief · 08/02/2025 13:40

Did you read the article?
She wasn't homeless by her own doing, when she was fit for discharge in the first place her place of care REFUSED to take her back and this is where it all started.

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At the point where she was offered a supposed flat with TWO carers and refused it, she was in fact homeless by her own choice.

butterfly0404 · 10/02/2025 10:55

godmum56 · 10/02/2025 10:25

how big is your caseload? and what is your profession?

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50 plus, I can't say exactly as it is too outing , I'm not clinical though.

Iwanttoliveonamountain · 10/02/2025 11:04

Gingernaut · 10/02/2025 09:11

People with personality disorders can't be sectioned unless they become a danger to themselves or others

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Okay, but could she be arrested for being in a prohibited area? Or something similar.

Serencwtch · 10/02/2025 11:28

ViolinsPlayGentlyOn · 10/02/2025 09:55

You may not be able to section someone, but there should be some way of dealing with the type of antisocial behaviour one of the people on a ward with her described in this thread. There does seem to be a real gap here (and I do think there probably could have been things done with the clutter, at least)

It’s not like the other patients could just have got up and moved somewhere else. Their needs matter just as much.

Show quote history

That may well be the case but that's dealt with in a different way & through the criminal justice service eg CBO, bail conditions etc

A section is something very different & should only be used for assessment & treatment for a mental health condition.

You really can't 'section someone ' to make them behave in a certain way and cannot use the threat of section to influence behaviour.

If she had the capacity to refuse assessment or treatment then the MHA & section can't be used.