I'm not good at saying no, how do I approach this and keep my job?

[MmmmmmmToblerone]

I have been doing my job for 6 years. I am a PA for an adult disabled client. I work for them 3 days a week and I work on a self employed basis (at their insistence).

The job was advertised with a car to take my client out and about. My client has a mobility vehicle which I have always used to drive them to their appointments, sports and social clubs and when we go out shopping etc.

My client usually receives a new car every 3 years and their current one is up for renewal in April, they decided around 6 months ago they will not renew the contract in April as they want the money in their pocket, fair enough, I have no issue with that.

The problem is that for the last few months they and their mother (who is heavily involved in their lives) keep asking me what will happen when they give up their mobility car and how will we get about. I have replied saying we can get the bus or a taxi to our destinations, the reply to this is always a "Mmmm?"or a "Oh, ok".

Anyhow, it transpires that they want me to use my car, several times now the mother has asked if I can use my car once the contact ends. I have always replied that it's not big enough (Fiat 500) to get the wheelchair in but now she has come up with the idea that my client can use their sticks which tbh will make getting out and about quite tricky and restrict the places we can go.

Regardless if they can use their sticks or not, the truth is that I don't want to use my car, it's 14 years old and has 100,000 miles on the clock, I only use it to and from work and I don't want to put any mileage on it. The mother seems to think simply paying me mileage will suffice and when I told her a few weeks ago that I really don't want to put extra mileage on etc she has been really off with me since. I am getting a bit fed up, the job was never advertised as needing to use my own car and I have never in all the time I have worked for them offered up my car as part of the service. I feel they already take the piss out of me for other things at times and I do not want to be pushed into using my own car just because they want to save themselves some extra money.

But I am crap at saying no and sticking to it, especially when they create such an atmosphere over it all.

How do I continue sticking to no and hope they get the message without feeling awful about it and without them getting funny about it as they seem to be taking it personally.

Thank you, it's good to know I'm not being totally unreasonable here because I have recently been questioning myself even though I know I do my job very well. I never take time off and am always available when they need me etc but being in a job where you are working so closely with people within their own personal lives can be tricky and I do find boundaries can be crossed, I sometimes feel as though they treat me like a family member but not in a good way!

The problem is that for the last few months they and their mother (who is heavily involved in their lives) keep asking me what will happen when they give up their mobility car and how will we get about. I have replied saying we can get the bus or a taxi to our destinations, the reply to this is always a "Mmmm?"or a "Oh, ok". It would have been perfect if, the first time either of them had asked, you’d replied ‘Why are you asking me? I thought you had sorted alternative travel methods when you decided to give up your car’. It is a problem, but it is not your problem. They didn’t consult you when the decision was made to give up the car. They have asked you to provide a solution to a problem that is not of your making. You have done so and they are ignoring it. There is no other solution.

But I am crap at saying no and sticking to it, especially when they create such an atmosphere over it all. How do I continue sticking to no and hope they get the message without feeling awful about it and without them getting funny about it as they seem to be taking it personally Every time they ask, reply with ‘nothing has changed for me since the last time you asked. But I’ve downloaded the timetable app for the buses and have got the phone number for the local taxi firm in my phone, ready to go’. Or ‘You don’t seem keen to travel by public transport. Are you sure you’ve made the right decision in giving up your car?’ If they reply that they thought they could use your car, say ‘That’s not an option I’m afraid. If I’d had any idea you were thinking that, I could’ve ruled that out before you gave up the car.

In your shoes, I’d give ACAS a ring and ask for some advice on whether you have any employment rights as a self employed person. The mum seems to think she’s in charge here and I think she’ll want to get rid of you and find someone who is willing to use their own car. Although, based on what you’ve said, I’d be looking for another job anyway. They are royally taking the piss out of you.

Honestly - this is really simple.

First you have a big decision to make - do you want to work for this client at all? If not, then stop it now. Tell them that you will be stopping working for them on x date, and stick to it. You are very marketable with your skills, flexibility and experience.

If you do want to continue working for the client, then tell them that the issue of transport has prompted you to look into the situation further.

Some of the tests around employment / self employment are (1) mutuality of obligation (i.e. how far in advance are you obliged to each other?), and the lines have become somewhat blurred on this. You need to clarify when you are available, times when you tell them you will not be available etc., the notice you will give, and stick to it.

(2) another is what's called 'substitution'. Technically, with their agreement, as a self-employed person, you should be able to reasonably send another suitable person in your place as they are paying for a service, not for you personally. The lines are a bit blurry on this too.

(3) control. As in how, and when you do your work, and with what equipment. You have full control over this. If a plumber comes to my house and wants to use my spanner, and I don't have one, to be fair, it's a problem. If they have one, but choose not to use it, that's also a problem. But it's their choice. And it might be a dealbreaker. So be it. No client can make you use something of your own that you don't want to in the course of your work.

You should probably also have other clients, otherwise this is all looking like 'disguised employment'. In which case, you could make noises to your 'client' about the fact that technically, you could be classed as a worker or even an employee, and entitled to 6 years worth of backpay for annual leave that you have accrued but not taken. They wouldn't like that now would they?

So - if you decide to stay - say look, we need to have a contract review meeting. Give them an agenda. Say I will be available then, then and then. These are the activities I am prepared to do. These are my fees. This is the date that these changes will come into place. You have xyz period to consider the position.

You can do this!!

Thank you everyone, you've all given me a little boost this morning, I was feeling very low today over it all.
I will stick with no being a final answer and start looking for something else.

I remember this from previous threads. They are shamelessly taking advantage of you. It needs to stop. They need you much more than the other way around!

You should work out how to withdraw from this exploitative working arrangement. If you don't feel confident doing it face to face, write it out and email or text it to them. January is a good point to say something like 'With the start of a new year I've been reviewing my finances and will have to make changes. I'm giving you notice that I'll be leaving my role on this date'. If you actually want to continue working for them (do not know why) then something instead for second sentence like 'I'm giving you notice that we will be moving to public transport use from x date unless you get a new vehicle on contract'. Send it and then you can do broken record and keep saying 'The email explains how it will work from now on'

Just say you don't have business insurance

Thank you, that's so very helpful.

With regards to the 'disguised employment' issue, I have to keep my working hours low (ish) as I also care for my mum who has Alzheimer's, I claim carers allowance for that so am restricted how much I can earn.

The father has said he'll cover that.

Definitely look for something else!
In the meantime stick to your guns about the car, and also while still using the motability car say from now on until the lease is up you will have to be paid for the time returning the car to the parents' house as you're still working, or you'll be leaving the car at the client's instead. If things are going sour then what have you got to lose (and it's what should be happening anyway!)?

Yep, I absolutely agree with you, the boundaries are tricky. I have done lots of other support work and it always is. But the only person who can hold the boundaries is you. You have to keep reminding yourself you are not family and this is a job. The complexity of their family set up is not your business. I am not saying to shut down the caring side of you, trust that you will still continue to be caring and kind, just that you won't accept crap as well.
Also rest safely in the knowledge that when you leave they will try exactly the same stuff on the next carer who skips in to rescue them. The cycle just carries on with or without you.

As someone who who manages a domicillary care agency for a living, and seperately to that I employ PAs for my own disabled child- let me tell you, you hold all the power here. Good PAs are like golddust, even borderline rubbish ones are hard to find.

Self employment or being employed directly by a family can work brilliantly, but I think it takes the right mix of client, family and PA, and a real commitment to the arrangement from all. I do have great sympathy for families trying to arrange care, it's constantly stressful, it's hard to trust people with your vulnerable child and if something isn't going wrong then it's about to. However they are taking you for a ride here, the driving on your own time especially has really irritated me on your behalf!

I see 3ish options:

1- carry on as you are and agree to use your car, to the detriment of your wellbeing and you will continue to be underpaid.

2- readjust the balance, let them know as a self employed carer that from x date you will need to invoice them fully for the hours you're working as you're being underpaid, if they don't pay you then just leave the and don't drop it back. And also that you won't use your own vehicle, don't explain your reasonings, just simply say no. State what your rate is and what that covers. Get someone to help you draft an email so it's all written down.

3- find other employment, in your situation I'd be tempted to find a good care agency and work for them for a year or so to build up your confidence again and try new things out in the care sector. Agencies would bite your hand off. Just make sure it's a good one as there are plenty of awful ones- ask around and post on facebook to get people's feedback.

Tell them that if they wish to give up the motability car that’s fine but it is time to renew your agreement - they will need to factor in your added costs as you will need a new car to ensure yours is safe and viable for the client (don’t want to break down with them in the car in the cold, do you? Plus your car is not designed for accessibility, unlike the motability car which will be. You will need to be compensated for fuel, wear and tear, parking charges etc & will need use of their blue badge.

They may find motability is the best option!

The rate for using a car on business is 42p a mile. You could say to them that covering the insurance doesn't cover fuel, wear and tear on the car, tell them you'll change them 42p a mile.

But if you blanket don't want to use your car then stick to your guns. Have phrases to use.

No I won't be using my car for business, it's also my personal car and I don't want the extra mileage and wear and tear.

Sorry no I'm not insured to take business passengers

Thank you for offering to pay the insurance but that doesn't cover wear and tear on the car or fuel

I'm not comfortable taking you in my car as it's already got high mileage on it and I don't want to put any more than necessary

Hi OP, they are taking the piss.

Something to remember is that it is really hard to employ PA's just now. Particularly people who are experienced and reliable. I doubt your employers would want to take the risk of you leaving over this, so stand strong. I would suggest you have more power here than you think you have.

I would just say that you don't feel comfortable driving someone in a car that has 100,000 miles on it and you'd be concerned you could get stuck on the side of a busy road in a broken down car with a disabled person without even their wheelchair to get them somewhere safe. It's a safety issue so needs a big hell no.

A Fiat 500 seems a ridiculous vehicle for a disabled person to get in and out of.

BUT could you just do it for a bit to show them how unfeasible it is? You could make money for yourself. Going rate for mileage is about 45p per mile, you could say ‘I’ll do it but will bill you 51p per mile and my insurance premium will go up by £92 so that will need to be paid upfront.’

I know you’re worried about mileage on your vehicle BUT being brutally honest a 14 year old Fiat 500 with 100k on the clock is pretty much worthless anyway, say if you did rack up a lot of mileage the car isn’t going to depreciate in value much anyway.

Or scrap all that and say ‘Sorry, it’s really not an option to use my vehicle.’

I'll definitely use this, thanks

I remember your previous post abd thought they were taking the piss then.
But using your car?!?

I’ll be honest, I would keep saying ‘no. My car isn’t suitable to use for Client’s transport’ and I’d be looking for another position.

Seriously, yore saying that the car isn’t the only issue. They’re taking you for granted and insuaiect might well put you in dangerous position (where you’d be the one having responsibility of anything bad happens. And they would turn on you. Dint ever doubt that).
It’s not worth it. You’re self employed. That’s to your advantage. You can chose who and how you work with people.

Tell them, you have looked into the insurance and while is possible, you feel unwilling to move forward on the idea as if you were ill or left, it would leave your client with no transport...
Just agree, yes it could be possible but ..... you feel unable to do it .

I think you are a too down on yourself. You have great experience in a field that is crying out for conscientious, reliable, flexible people. There will be a job out there for you if you look around with someone that won't take you for a mug. I bet you haven't even had a pay rise even though inflation and the cost of living has gone up.

Out of curiosity, how long did their previous PAs work for them for? Be prepared for them to be annoyed with you when you hand in your notice because it sounds like they feel that they have every right to line their own pockets by taking money out of your pocket. There will probably be some level of emotional manipulation, but resist it. They will cope without you until they find their next PA.

Please just give them notice, the minimum amount possible and start looking for another job. You sound like a lovely person with valuable skills and there will be lots of families that would just love to have you assist them. Leave these leeches to find their own way around (spend their money) or stay at home. You are far too good for them and I think a clean break will be best.

ACAS would give you advice and fight your corner I worked two days a week in a shop casually. One day I wasn’t paid the owner said I had taken an item I had not so I contacted ACAS told them what had happened they told the shop owner I was owed over £1000 in holiday pay there’s very strict laws on self employment and you are not self employed call ACAS

Btw @MmmmmmmToblerone , I’m a wheelchair user. Like your client, I can walk (a bit).

The idea that a Fiat 500 is a suitable car is laughable.
It’s not just the space in the boot. It’s also the going in and out of the car. The space once seated, position of the seats etc….

Its a ridiculous idea only motivated by their hope to save some money.