Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

I think the tradition/elitism discussion is really interesting. One of the problems that church choirs have now is attracting any children to sing in them because

1. church attendance has fallen heavily
2. many children are doing sports (paid for, elitist perhaps?) on a Sunday morning.
3. choral singing actually is seen as elitist, or boring (even though it isn't) in a way that it wasn't 50 years ago.

Sadly I think that the traditional church choir will die out, and it's a great shame as (quite apart from the cultural loss) it's one environment where children are just as important as the adult singers around them and therefore able to learn how to behave & operate as equals to them. As a kid I found this really empowering 😁.
One (very) minor impact is that Oxbridge aren't always able to fill organ scholar roles any more because so few children learn to play - mine both learnt to play the organ at church.

You may tell I feel quite strongly about this 🤣

And yes - I'd like a properly funded music syllabus in all achools.

Bridget Phillipson went to Oxford, studied French, played the violin and was even in Byker Grove...

I doubt very much she is halting funds for Latin because its associated with Bojo... its a poor policy decision because its being halted mid exam course but as said, more than likely part of a number of cuts that add up.

We simply don't know why they've done it for certain.

This will probably make the past 25 years congeal into some sort of ironic sense.

A Prime Minister who is really superman, so trashes Britains nuclear deterrent

A loonybins POTUS being advised by a shadowy religious figure

A series of old Russian premiers who keep dying and need to be replaced with clones

And an exiled Middle Eastern ruler trapped on a cross channel Ferry.

All with "L'acrobat" the worlds most accomplished terrorist at disguises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whoops_Apocalypse

"Sick minds Mr. President !"

"I can put a coat over it."
"No, better keep it Jewish".

I will not be responsible for the 3 hours lost watching it.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats - I thought it used to be the case that choral scholarship and organ scholarships were a way into Oxbridge. So those kids got to focus on that in their Sixth Form, honing their talents in that regard, rather than wider reading and in depth reading and supracurricular. The commitment once at the university is huge - so if it is not rewarded by concessions in entry and once there, the kids are just not incentivised to go for it and the standards drop. It is not so much that the talent pool has diminished, it is more that they have been told to focus their efforts elsewhere. It is all pretty labour intensive stuff, both before going and whilst at the university.

I really couldn't think of anything worse than an idea floated somewhere (maybe this thread) about some sort of pan-European state-subsidised news service. Bearing in mind we have the Nigel Farage Channel BBC which is already state funded.

DS2 was awarded an organ scholarship. He gave it up after a year because of toxic internal chapel politics - and instead plays in term time at a local church (for significantly more financial reward).

The commitment required for most colleges is not huge at all - DS2 had one rehearsal and one service each week plus a few extras each term. Clearly if you are at Christchurch or King's that is completely different but those type of colleges are in a significant minority.
And while it might have been the case in the past that you could get into Oxbridge if you could play the organ and write your name in crayon - DS2 had exactly the same offer he would have had without the organ scholarship.

Super, thank you!

Welcome @CruCru

It's mostly polite, sensible and intelligent debate here. Which I've very much enjoyed since I stumbled over these threads.

Unfortunately, every now and then, we are visited by Bad Actors, who are not here to join in with genuine intent, but more to snark and sneer.

Best to ignore those.

<must take my own advice>

Latin is/was elitist because it was a condition in certain jobs and professional life. The old Peter Cook joke about I could have been a judge if it wasn't for the Latin was getting at all these criteria which were included in these rather elite jobs for reasons which were very unclear and certainly not connected to actual skill.

When we talk about the decline of choirs and music, that's to do with the decline of Christianity and people passing those traditions down in their own families. I don't think it is on governments to support it.

I mentioned the King William Quiz earlier because it is a good example of this kind of decline. It was at one point the entrance test for the school. It no longer is, because children are not in schools nor do they have family cultures that would sustain that "classical education" to stand a chance of answering any of the questions.

It's because in part, the relative mania for meritocracy in education is much more easily achieved by testing objective criteria. And that is our education system now, preparing for work, not a classical education designed for a minority.

@SerendipityJane - you completely misunderstood what I was saying. It was about a social media platform that is properly safeguarded for youngsters and increasingly the elderly too, in accordance with our underlying European principles, laws, human rights etc. There is this anti screen anti social media for kids momentum building - the point was simply that social media isn’t going away. It needs proper regulation and safeguarding for all and clearly Musk and Zuckerberg who have the monopolies are not going to do that. The sooner people understand the democratic implications, the better.

I understood perfectly well. Well enough to know that without some sort of bung from the state (taxpayers) it's not possible.

We're back to Shaw's (in)famous observation that now we are just arguing over the price.

We already have a raft of laws around libel, slander, incitement and hate speech. Rather than piss around trying to create new ones the answer (as always) is to enforce those properly.

Yep. Durham Cathedral choristers receive a "discounted" education at local private schools.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats and @CruCru I too love a bit of ecclesiastical Latin, particularly in a crunchy bit of Renaissance polyphony that boggles the brain to learn…
I'm properly a pleb though, bog standard comp, no Latin education. We need to protect our choral tradition, we are very good at it in the U.K. If, as @Araminta1003 thinks, a few children leaving private schools will threaten it we’ve got bigger problems than taxing some firms of education. Money needs to be fed back into the arts at all levels pronto.
You should see some of the kids who sing choral music in my Choir’s youth section @DuncinToffee Nothing elite there. Just a choir leader who markets well and challenges them while keeping a varied programme - yes, ancient ecclesiastical Latin, but also choral arrangements of pop and Disney pieces.
I’m a bit passionate about this, if you hadn’t noticed.

Agree. One of the least elite art forms. No equipment required. Opportunities for free (and even, as you say, paid) up and down the country.

But currently the arts are getting the rough end. There needs to be rebalancing.

I think the mechanism for retaining choirs is to detach them from religion. DS sings in his university choir, and it's secular. My NHS trust has a choir for staff - also entirely secular, very well attended because there's recognition of the benefits of singing in a group in terms of stress reduction and so on. It's not impossible to keep the good bits whilst moving away from the outdated social trappings.

I feel like Wales is different when it comes to elitism. Choirs and rugby for instance just seems to be part of daily life rather than posh

I agree with you on the arts.

I'm neither Labour, nor Conservative, nor LibDem, nor Green

But that's because im in Scotland where I have a choice - that is also left of centre arguably more so than Labour and which openly supports the EU Not everyone will agree with that choice - but at least I have it I don't have a clue who I'd vote for if I lived in England. But definitely not Conservative or Reform

Young Voices at the O2 is a big thing in London state primaries.

I agree there’s a link between the loss of choral singing and the reduction in. Umbers of church goers. I think the choral singing has value culturally (and personally to those who learn it and love it). It’s part of our artistic heritage, and if churches can’t, I think governments probably should help to ensure our skill in this area isn’t lost. To show what perfectly ordinary kids can do (a few go to a small independent locally, most don’t, their ages range from 9 to 18) can do, here’s the youth section of my choir (which rehearses in a church and his some links - the church funds lessons as a choral scholarship for a few of the choir members but most of the choir don't sing in the church choir) performing at Christmas. They all bloody love singing this.

@DuncinToffee - it’s football in English state primaries.

Nothing more uplifting than children singing

That is what I meant with comparing it to rugby in Wales

The arts and the charity sector are something to be applauded about England. Vital to our identity.

Which is why fascists want to control them.