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Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 13/01/2025 17:48

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

OP posts:
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58
cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:05

And that is our education system now, preparing for work, not a classical education designed for a minority
@bombastix I’m troubled by this bit of your post. Education really, really shouldn’t be preparation for work. That’s training. I can’t tell whether you are observing this regretfully or otherwise. In addition, while a classical education was only given to a minority, I don’t think it’s only suitable for them. I’m old enough that I was given a good grounding in more traditional areas of education even at a bog standard comp. I think we’ve lost a lot and risk losing a lot more because education has become conflated with training.

Rummly · 15/01/2025 12:05

BIWI · 15/01/2025 11:22

Welcome @CruCru

It's mostly polite, sensible and intelligent debate here. Which I've very much enjoyed since I stumbled over these threads.

Unfortunately, every now and then, we are visited by Bad Actors, who are not here to join in with genuine intent, but more to snark and sneer.

Best to ignore those.

<must take my own advice>

Edited

This is obviously an oblique reference to me as a ‘bad actor’- and possibly one or two others - and I think it’s untrue and objectionable.

What some of you call sneering is me pointing out that Labour politicians have feet of clay just like all other politicians. Or that Labour policy has downsides and demerits, just like other parties’ policies.

If you don’t like critical comments about your favoured politics and politicians, tough. Don’t label others as ‘bad’ because they disagree with you.

DuncinToffee · 15/01/2025 12:06

Remember that video of Starmer listening to children singing in Cardiff

OP posts:
cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:09

Araminta1003 · 15/01/2025 12:04

The arts and the charity sector are something to be applauded about England. Vital to our identity.

The U.K.

Not just England.

BIWI · 15/01/2025 12:09

I'm not labelling anyone 'bad' because they disagree with me. I'm labelling posters who snark and sneer as 'bad' i.e. who are not here with genuine intent to participate in discussion.

Quite happy to read criticism about any politician - of any party - as long as it's based on actual facts.

(I believe I, myself, posted something critical of Tulip Siddiq just yesterday).

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:09

DuncinToffee · 15/01/2025 12:06

Remember that video of Starmer listening to children singing in Cardiff

That was lovely!

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:09

Education really, really shouldn’t be preparation for work.

Education should teach you how to learn, and how to express your learning.

And if I had my way, everyone would be encouraged (with grants and free tuition) to study to the highest level they can reasonably achieved.

(If this sounds like how it was in before the 90s, then good !).

Everything is connected to everything else so learning and the acquisition of knowledge is never wasted.

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:10

Totally agree @SerendipityJane

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:11

Badenoch is a smug liar by the way. Just watching PMQs. I’m not feeling well today and this really isn’t helping the nausea…

PandoraSox · 15/01/2025 12:12

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:10

Totally agree @SerendipityJane

Me too.

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:14

Also to add that really, in my ideal society, education would be a lifelong process. And people would be encouraged to pursue it - whether to refresh or refocus - at all and any ages.

I have met so many folk who were not at the time able to hack the O-level (yes I am that old) -> A-level -> degree pathway that was traditional in days of yore. However if they had been able to work for a few years and then go back to renew studying could easily have achieved a 1st. Bu "the system" isn't meant for them.

This is why I have formed the view that the education business (as it is now) exists to fulfil the needs of the people who work in education. Because it sure as hell isn't meant to educate it's customers.

(See also: health service; legal system; political system).

Yes - I really am that cynical in real life.

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:15

Rummly · 15/01/2025 12:05

This is obviously an oblique reference to me as a ‘bad actor’- and possibly one or two others - and I think it’s untrue and objectionable.

What some of you call sneering is me pointing out that Labour politicians have feet of clay just like all other politicians. Or that Labour policy has downsides and demerits, just like other parties’ policies.

If you don’t like critical comments about your favoured politics and politicians, tough. Don’t label others as ‘bad’ because they disagree with you.

Believe it or not, it's not all about you. However if you felt it was ... guilty conscience ?

DuncinToffee · 15/01/2025 12:20

Badenoch is really bad at this

OP posts:
Rummly · 15/01/2025 12:20

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:15

Believe it or not, it's not all about you. However if you felt it was ... guilty conscience ?

Yeah, sure. That ‘snark’ and ‘sneer’ has been levelled at me before is completely coincidental. 🙄.

What could I possibly feel guilty about? Not being suitably deferential to the government and it’s MN supporters?

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:21

Can’t speak to the others, but the education system certainly doesn’t serve those working in it currently, so no idea how it’s ended up like this. I tend to blame Gove, but he just made things worse rather than causing the issues you describe - which I absolutely agree with.

DuncinToffee · 15/01/2025 12:23

Keir Starmer:

"I got a letter this week from a Tory voter in a Labour seat... Liz Truss. It wasn't written in green ink but it might as well have been. She was complaining that saying she crashed the economy was damaging her reputation. It was crashing the economy that damaged her reputation."

😂

OP posts:
bombastix · 15/01/2025 12:25

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:05

And that is our education system now, preparing for work, not a classical education designed for a minority
@bombastix I’m troubled by this bit of your post. Education really, really shouldn’t be preparation for work. That’s training. I can’t tell whether you are observing this regretfully or otherwise. In addition, while a classical education was only given to a minority, I don’t think it’s only suitable for them. I’m old enough that I was given a good grounding in more traditional areas of education even at a bog standard comp. I think we’ve lost a lot and risk losing a lot more because education has become conflated with training.

But that is what it is like!

I don't necessarily think it is desirable. But it seems to me that the expansion of university education, and the drive to professionalism in graduate jobs has created this very limited set of criteria.

It's probably a Conservative sin but not one Labour are correcting. I only ever hear education ministers talk about the workplace, skills, practical application. I cannot remember the last time I heard any education minister talk about culture, an appreciation for the arts, love of literature or indeed anything that didn't strictly relate to economic worth.

That leaves subjects like mine, history, English literature, classics, as a kind of additional extra. I do think it is sad, but look at the education boards. It is all about jobs in the future.

The consequences of paying for university and not being paid to go has had strong implications on what "return" parents or students get.

I got paid by the Government to go to university. I did a history degree. Then I persuaded an employer to take a chance on my abilities as a graduate even though I knew nothing. That world is now over, because I would be out competed in many cases by someone who had specialised far earlier.

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:26

Rummly · 15/01/2025 12:20

Yeah, sure. That ‘snark’ and ‘sneer’ has been levelled at me before is completely coincidental. 🙄.

What could I possibly feel guilty about? Not being suitably deferential to the government and it’s MN supporters?

Like Pilate, my hands are clean. And if you find posters on here are being unduly "deferential" to the government then (a) no one is forcing you to read this drivel and (b) you may need to buy a new dictionary..

As for MN supporters being "deferential" to one another, are you sure you aren't mistaking basic manners for supplication ?

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:28

I agree that’s how it is @bombastix Your comments on how it got there are right too, in my opinion. It just shouldn’t be. We lose a lot by having a utilitarian view of training instead of proper education

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:30

I don't necessarily think it is desirable. But it seems to me that the expansion of university education, and the drive to professionalism in graduate jobs has created this very limited set of criteria.

As soon as education could be commoditised, then it was obviously going to be driven by a pressure to make as much money as possible out of as many people as possible. Same as motor cars and washing machines. And like motor cars or washing machines where Ford and Hotpoint don't give two shits what you do with their products once you have bought them, university education has gone the same way.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.

toooldforbrat · 15/01/2025 12:30

all this talk of choirs is making me more tempted to join the choir I saw an advert for last week - its the tuneless choir! for those like me who cant hold a tune but love to sing.

(was forced to sing tunelessly in church choir and even deliver an out of tune solo once - never forgotten that and my Latin that I was also forced to take for 3 years didn't help)

MaybeNotBob · 15/01/2025 12:30

With regards to music, it has been proven, consistently over decades, that learning music improves learning in all other areas.

It shouldn't really be rocket surgery to make sure that there is adequate music tuition in all schools.

It's also one of the (few) areas where the UK is massively exporting not just content, but musicians themselves all around the world, such is the talent that we have traditionally nurtured here. Unfortunately, it's becoming a rather more elitist, as most children don't get the opportunities to learn an instrument as we used to.

So short sighted.

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:32

Been a while since we've been nasty to Elon Musk. Or Muskolini as I hear tell.

Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
bombastix · 15/01/2025 12:38

cardibach · 15/01/2025 12:28

I agree that’s how it is @bombastix Your comments on how it got there are right too, in my opinion. It just shouldn’t be. We lose a lot by having a utilitarian view of training instead of proper education

I think the effect is patronizing and corrosive on people.

It's also very elitist because basically it leaves a huge amount of culture, and England is an ancient culture in the hands of a few.

I suspect it will also have another effect. The new elites are technical ones, and if they have any wider appreciation of English culture it will be a happy side effect, not because of the education system.

The moment universities expanded the whole basis of the system, which was the academic and amateur culture of English education (which is a huge strength) was changed.

I see this in my juniors now. They are qualified to the back teeth. And they are in serious debt.

Rummly · 15/01/2025 12:41

SerendipityJane · 15/01/2025 12:26

Like Pilate, my hands are clean. And if you find posters on here are being unduly "deferential" to the government then (a) no one is forcing you to read this drivel and (b) you may need to buy a new dictionary..

As for MN supporters being "deferential" to one another, are you sure you aren't mistaking basic manners for supplication ?

Er, ok. Why do I need a new dictionary? Was it the autocorrect of its to it’s?

What I said was, “What could I possibly feel guilty about? Not being suitably deferential to the government and it’s MN supporters?

How does that mean anything other than ‘why should I feel guilty about not being deferential to the government or deferential to posters on this thread’? I said nothing about the way that MN Labour supporters talk to each other on here.

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