Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

But you aren’t saying what the solution is @Araminta1003 - let them pay what they like? What?
You didn’t answer why people pay for private schools either, just moved on to millionaire drain (which @Notonthestairs figures seem to suggest isn’t that ‘bad’ anyway).

Lower taxes for the rich and fingers crossed it trickles down?

"They seem to understand that the rich and successful seek the rich and successful."

Yes, hence the rapid expansion of UK private schools in UAE.
Underlines the fact that they wouldn't necessarily want to attend any state school that they'd have access to and wouldn't consider that a privilege.

HNW's are mobile and want low taxes. Can we afford them?

Trickle - down economics doesn't work.
"Tax cuts for the rich only make the rich wealthier, it does not
benefit the broader economy."
Study by David Hope and Julian Limberg.
Ask Liz Truss ?

Am I misunderstanding? People don't make contacts at PS? Man, even I made contacts when I worked in PS. I think in some ways in my experience it was the parents who benefited from the contacts most.

It seems an appropriate time to post this meme (and it is a genuine reflection of his views and not made up). Not all millionaires are selfish.

I'd forgotten that post. Love Graham Norton for that.

This is exactly why one of my colleagues has gone. He can put both of his children through private school, with a much larger salary, and no struggle. For a professional family man (or woman) it is very tempting.

I am sorry to say but the Graham Norton quote is out of date now. “Crime was less?” “Housing was better?” Switzerland, Dubai, Singapore fair better on those measures (definitely the crime one) so not sure which countries he is referring to?

UAE are expanding in all directions and education is just one part of it. Other countries are also competing with us over universities now. There are US unis establishing campuses there.
We shouldn’t necessarily be dissing countries that are running out of oil and are trying to build an alternative future/economy.

I cannot keep up with the non dom changes, but I think inheritance tax for non doms on worldwide assets was never going to work. Why would someone want to hand it all over here when they have a history somewhere else potentially and where so many countries have a far more lenient inheritance tax regime.

However, I wasn’t talking about the super rich. I simply stated the obvious that the high marginal tax rates for those living in London not on the property ladder are pretty outrageous. And so I am not surprised if they end up moving. I would encourage my own DC to do the same. Which successful educated person wants to live somewhere where they cannot buy a house or rent at a high standard for a reasonable price with secure tenor? Makes no sense.

I think he is referring to what Britain could be compared to where it is now
A country with less crime, cheaper housing, better education

Dubai and Singapore are both nice places to live, but also very authoritarian underneath (I feel mean saying that about Singapore because its lovely and the people are lovely). They have a lot more options in their tool box for enforcing the rules than the UK does. But, I can't see people in the UK accepting the very strict littering laws that Singapore has. And if you think that Covid regulations were strict in the UK they were absolutely nothing compared to Dubai. Because Dubai can just say "no-one is leaving their houses without permission from an app and you get that permission every 3 days". Everyone accepts it because they are ex=pats and living there is conditional on following the rules.
Then you can get into an argument about whether, actually, the system they have is better than ours because law and order is so much better. The problem is, places like that are fine until they are not. Having a government that can just make people do stuff no questions has downsides. And even if you did think it would work, people in the UK just instinctively would not accept it. There is a truculence/stubbornness to being told what to do
Switzerland obviously is a democracy and a beautiful country. But OMG the petty laws about petty things. It makes the country nicer/more picturesque for sure. But there are downsides and again, if laws about gardens etc were enforced here the way they are there mumsnet would be flooded with complaints.

https://opportunities-insight.britishcouncil.org/features/examining-sustainability-of-transnational-education-egypt-qatar-and-united-arab-emirates

Anyone who does not believe me go look into the expansion of unis in Dubai. Birla (a well known Indian one) has also got presence as well as a number of UK and US ones.

Incidentally Riyadh and Dubai/UAE are going to be competing with each other for expats/companies. Relaxing the rules on alcohol and gambling means that SA can attract companies currently in Dubai. This doesn't mean that either country is inherently bad. But the very fact that people are there for the advantages (cheap living, low crime rate) as expats means that they are actually even more vulnerable to losing those expats and the companies than e.g. the US and UK. So setting themselves up as a low tax haven for foreign companies/expats has downsides longterm. Its not very secure as its as easy for people to go as to come.

The thing that does get forgotten is how mobile people who have good qualifications can be.

And there is an uptick in offers you get. I don't think Dubai is for me. But I have just taken a job that will have regular travel to Switzerland, and former colleagues speak very highly of it. I love the UK, and I've been a higher rate taxpayer pretty much all my working life, but I am very conscious that my salary and quality of life are not what they would be elsewhere. I am also very frustrated at what has happened to public services.

My colleagues and contemporaries are leaving. I'm sure it's not golden everywhere else, but the temptation to leave, financially, with your children receiving a globally competitive education is tempting,

@biscuitandcake - actually I think Switzerland was far more lax and reasonable about Covid than we were. My brothers kids only missed a few weeks of school, in total. So I think they are changing. They did have quite high population growth and immigration too so perhaps the rules will be more difficult to enforce in the long run. It is a running joke in Switzerland that every Swiss used to be a policeman in disguise, but the younger generation seems quite different.
Dubai has also changed a lot in the last 20 years. Some of the cliches are still there but it clearly is far more attractive to some people than it used to be.
These are all small countries doing well though and so I find them interesting examples of how to grow, how things maybe can be done, how they are coming up with stuff to do well long term.

@bombastix - I just do not think our Governments have a plan nor are in control. If you have net migration of hundreds of thousands of rich and qualified leaving and you have inward migration of low skilled workers typically and some qualified, then the impacts on the economy are going to be very different. I just do not think anyone is even bothering with tracking this accurately and thinking about it. Just more denial. But to know what is actually going and getting hard core fact might be helpful.

Perhaps we should adopt the same approach as Finland and make fines for driving offences proportionate to income. Who could squeal about that and sti get sympathy?

There's a British cognitive dissonance around migration, with an eagerness to look globally for better work/tax/conditions rather than move to cheaper UK regions.
At the same time objecting to the number of economic migrants coming in to the UK for a better life.
Why is it only ok for Brits to migrate, and not the rest of the global population?

@InMySpareTime - people seek the best economic & personal etc opportunities for themselves, on an individual level. It applies equally to those coming here from countries with less freedom/social welfare/lower earning potential, as well as those leaving this country. There are other countries specifically competing for young talented people and rich people and attracting them.

That's fine, off you go then, but someone else will take your place. The life you're leaving for a better life is someone else's better life.
We'll be ok without the current batch of super rich if they go elsewhere, there are plenty of rich people waiting to progress.

Are we going to talk about the fact that homosexuality is illegal in Dubai? Along with sex outside of marriage and other normal behaviours.

Or do these things not matter? Gay people should just stay put and lose all these apparent amazing lifestyles and opportunities?

Some people. You seem to have this idea that all people covert money above all else. This is a fallacy. Some people chase the almighty dollar, some may move because they are desperate. Most people just want to make their lives, and the lives of those in their communities better.

The UK nor any other Western country can compete on housing or tax in Dubai, its all heavily subsidised with oil revenues, US/Europe cannot reduce taxation to 0%, so whatever we did, the wealthy will look at move but i doubt few will be seeking to become UAE citizens.

Is it a place you want to make your forever home? Are 45'C plus summer temps attractive? and they will only increase.... its hard to even walk outside in those.

Whilst we lost net 10k millionaires last year with around 126k relocating, an approx 116k new millionaires did make the UK their home... & it also depends on how much tax we have lost doesn't it?

I was not talking about myself whatsoever. Some of the papers are running the millionaires, non doms leaving again and how it will be a net cost of 1 billion rather than a net profit of 13 billion. So this was intended as a debate and we know a lot of doctors are leaving.

I think for let’s say a middle class Indian talented person or a similar Chinese person the opportunities here can be better than in their own countries. Equally, for a lot of middle class British kids the opportunities can be better in other countries now than here. So it is a simple observation. I have no issues whatsoever with immigration and believe it all comes out in the wash. However, to try and state that the higher earners 100k-150k are not taxed through the roof here is completely inaccurate. A lot of middle class professionals in London are in this bracket and with no inherited wealth, many are leaving.