Thread 13 Starmer - facts are for lefties

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5214955-thread-12-starmer-from-prescott-to-rayner-working-class-grit?page=40&reply=140341929

Farage was needled about Brexit on QT - he answered that it was 'great', 'we're free' and something about EU imploding. Last time I was unfortunate enough to hear him speak it was to say Brexit had been done badly and implying he'd have done it better. Seems he's not wanting to focus on that 'better' now - as it's probably impossible and probably would require thought and work. He's not a grafter, he's a grifter who causes disruption quite effectively (sadly).
If Reform lead the country with him in charge it would be beyond dire - the whole day to day governance that we don't really know or discuss would fall apart, unless he surrounded himself with experienced and hard working MPs/cabinet. Apart from that he would not be able to implement the majority of his manifesto in reality - and he'd have to own that for once! He may just be able to implement a USA style health service though - sure we'd all love that one!

Labour aren't perfect at all but there is the running of stuff at least and some follow through on some pledges - Tories have been so obviously corrupt latterly it's a concern re them running the country, but possibly they would manage it once again. We'd really be burning Britain if we go for Reform, not just through bad governance, but also as only way they really thrive and maintain popularity is by sowing hatred between us - that isn't how we want society to be surely - it is a bit of a worry for my grandkids I have to say.

There is just this massive failure to deal with Brexit. People do not want to deal with the vote. Yes lies, racism, misinformation and then five years of economic incompetence and rising immigration. The last one is driving Reform.

Labour have got to, absolutely got to deliver. Housing, jobs, and a lot of investment for the future. Less migration. A lot less.

Reform are gaining traction because people feel they have been waiting for this Brexit dividend. No mainstream party has been prepared to say the truth - it’s a disaster. So Reform always have a bloody angle. People don’t want to believe they got it wrong, they will blame others.

Throwing light on their policies and discussing them - such as the NHS, housing, dentistry, social care, the implications of an older population, a population that is not working because of illness or because they don't need to, the wealth gap etc

This is what should be being discussed - and any party who is serious about wanting to govern the UK needs to discuss them

My guess is that the Reform voter is not interested in those things. They want low tax, less migration, less Westminster. They are protest.

I love the UK but it seems to me we are without a vision. Consequently all the nostalgia politics of Reform and a simpler time are an easy sell.

How could the Reform party , with no experience, possibly think they could govern ?
Farage's performance on QT last week was abysmal.
I think at one point he offered to be a bridge (something like that ) between the UK and Trump.
Scary times we are living in for sure.

Farage doesn't care, anymore than Bojo did about backing Brexit as a means to become PM, he should on trial, not making millions on the after dinner circuit.

I'm with the "Labour must deliver" - they wont be given a second chance.

Well I actually do agree with you @Alexandra2001 on the comment that Labour must deliver or they won't be given a second chance.
That's how the system works here.
We doff to the toffs.

It is what people will lose that needs focussing on. I am currently in a hospital where all manner of very vulnerable people are being cared for. Many of them are elderly.

This is a good example of something people take for granted. If it fails, who suffers? Yet British people are very careless with it. It’s a complete mess after 14 years.

Reform are for privatisation and insurance. All good if you are young and healthy. Bad if you are sick or old. If I were elderly I would think I would want a functional NHS. But when you look at voting patterns, older people vote Reform or Tory. They have little comprehension of how much paying would cost them. And to judge from the conversation, they believe as pensioners the government would look after them and they would get faster appointments.

Amazing. And rather alarming

Margaret Hodge has been appointed UK anti-corruption champion

First time the post has been filled since John Penrose resigned to protest the partygate scandal in 2022.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/dec/09/margaret-hodge-appointed-uk-anti-corruption-champion-to-tackle-flow-of-dirty-money

Reform are gaining traction because people feel they have been waiting for this Brexit dividend.

These are people for whom "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" is just meaningless babble then.

Remember: you can't call them thick.

Many people want instant solutions, they won’t or don’t want to listen to some of reasons why improvements & outcomes will take some time (agree though Labour comms on this has been abysmal) the last fourteen years decimated so many resources they wasted billions & the last few years they barely governed.
Farage is a grifter & a con man but he continues to peddle nonsense/soundbites doesn’t appear to being called out on any of it, Labour seem petrified to counter his lies & the farce that is Brexit & the airtime he is given is infuriating, it’s disturbing & frightening that Reform are spewing such bile, him & his party are an abomination.

Ah but Lee Anderson fought in the Battle of the Somme......

I don’t know if it’s that people are thick, but that the UK is very conservative. It took a European war before Labour got a majority for a welfare state and the NHS. And they lost it afterwards. My parents are just about old enough to remember life without these things. They would not go back.

My sister is riddled with cancer after a lifetimes work. The NHS will treat her. Privatizing medicine is a death sentence in her circumstances, there are people who think it will never happen to them, that they would get insurance. They would not. For friends in the US cancer is not only a death sentence but financial ruin.

I hope Labour deliver and the UK does not commit a form of healthcare suicide by deciding Farage or the Conservatives (who are clearly going to be on fruit loop form by the next election) are a good answer to our considerable problems.

the UK is very conservative.

?

First woman Prime Minister in Europe.
A "Conservative" party that pushed gay marriage.
A Conservative party that took Britain into Europe

"very" or "somewhat" ?

Some people probably would believe this if it was repeated enough.
bombastix I’m so very sorry about your sister, I really hope she is receiving the care that she needs💐 I can’t remember who posted a graph probably many threads ago, which showed how much better a Labour government usually we’re for the country, I still don’t understand why the Tories always seems to be held to much lower standards than Labour & so much more is expected of them the last fourteen years surely should have made many people realise that it’s always always party first country second they have demonstrated this over & over again in a myriad of ways & actions when people show us who they are we really should take heed.

That's true.

And that's where Starmer is failing to use his excellent skills in presenting facts to counteract this.

He's a phenomenal barrister. He should be able to calmly put forward a clear case.

Agree.

They need to ask him what benefits we are seeing. What will we see. Why aren't we seeing them. Instead of allowing him floorspace to keep presenting his argument (which he's a great at as his communication is annoyingly fab!) they need to get him to answer how what he wanted has been of benefit.

I dunno that was a very different Conservative party, they had people that did have principals/talent & were fairly astute I didn’t agree with many of the policies but did respect the like of John Major, Ken Clarke they weren’t total raving lunatics.

We don't need to ask Farage anything.

What we do need to do is tell Farage supporters that Brexit is a success and let him squirm. After all, he's still here isn't he ?

It's a facile debating technique, but it can be deployed to the great unthinking.

"What do you want ?"
"Less immigration !"
"Well we had Brexit. And that fixed immigration didn't it ?"
"But small boats !"
"But Brexit fixed immigration didn't it ?"

and slowly loop round.

The key here is to be a little discerning with your resources. 1 in 3 people don't vote and never will.

It's about getting people to change their minds. The way is to get them to think about their own reasons, to examine why they maybe aren't totally certain about their opinion and to get them to think about other views. Not to challenge them - as challenging leads to defensiveness.

Change comes from within

"When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow".

David Cameron pushed gay marriage in spite of his party. More Conservative MPs voted against than for - mine was one of them along with some v familiar names Kwarteng, Patel, Hayes, Mogg, McVey etc.

I think it's fair to say that "conservative" in the UK as a political term doesn't always align with it's dictionary definition.

Oh to see ourselves as others see us ...

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/deirdre-heenan-kneecap-wont-be-the-last-group-to-score-a-win-over-kemi-badenoch-DHHEOSHBD5E6FLIADZ4KQQGYI4/

"I think it's fair to say that "conservative" in the UK as a political term doesn't always align with its dictionary definition."

Agree.