Why are people so down on boys?!

[Choobakka]

I have two boys and definitely won't be having any more. I never had any particular preference regarding the sex of either of my babies. Yet since my DS2 was born 6 months ago I've had nothing but negativity from family and friends, asking me if I was going to try for a girl, videos on social media from "boy mums" feeling sad they will one day be the Grandmother on "Dad's side" and just generally loads of implication that when my boys are grown they will be all in with their female partners' families should they have female partners, and not bother with me or their Dad. Is this an accurate reflection? In this day and age? DH and I have very little to do with his parents admittedly but they're alcoholics! OTOH my brother is married and I would say he and my lovely SIL probably see more of my mum than they do of hers. My sisters' husbands seem to see lots of their own families.

I think this was meant for @PerambulationFrustration, as i didn’t say that?

„”Things that were traditionally boyish are now looked down upon, behaviour of boys is really scrutinised, ideally they need to be more like girls.„

You say ideally the need to be more like girls, in terms of societal expectations. What are those girlish qualities? Is being practical and assertive just traditionally boyish qualities?

As adults and as parents we tend to perpetuate these „” traditional” stereotypical gender qualities, from birth. We buy little girls baby dolls and toy push chairs, we dress them up in pink, we tell them to be helpful, we send a clear message, from a young age that they are naturally more nurturing, caring etc. Boys are are bought trucks, play guns, building blocks, they are made to wear blue, encouraged to be more sport oriented, often admonished when upset and told that they are crying „”like a girl”, it to „”man up”. And so it goes on. No baby is born with those characteristics. As parents, and as a society, we condition our kids with all these behavioural expectations, so in this case we falsely believe that qualities such as being practical and assertive are only male traits. But that’s not true. These are good human qualities, that we need to be instilling in all our children, regardless of gender.

I have one of each. Didn't have any preference, love them both equally. Some women like a daughter to relive some of their own childhood maybe or do 'girl stuff' with when older. I have just returned from a weekend away with my son and we had a brilliant time!
Also on the Grandma on Dad side thing...from personal experience I was incredibly close to my Dad's Mum...and I mean extremely close. We travelled to America together, I lived with her at one point....she was everything to me. She is gone 11 years and I miss her terribly. So I really wouldn't let that be a factor to worry about. Enjoy your gorgeous boys 💙💙

My DH does loads of this.

SleepyHippy3 ionly had boys, and I agree a lot of qualities are human qualities that we want boys and girls to have. My boys had dolls and are kind. But for me the quality I felt my boys struggled with was maturity.

Girls hit a lot of milestones a tiny bit earlier and indeed hit puberty a bit earlier. I felt my boys were expected to develop at the same rate as girls. This is a bit controversial as some people say it's only socialisation, but it's fairly consistent around things like speech, potty training, hitting puberty, girls on average, get there first (not all girls all the time obviously and all boys all the time)

I really felt the classroom expectations were based on autumn born girls. It's very telling that summer born boys are most likely to be diagnosed with sen at primary and then seem to grow out if it.

@Sockmate123 I was a lot closer to my Dad's parents too.

@SleepyHippy3 it does sound as if people are not happy with boxing, rather than with sporty boys......

The problem I see is that far too many parents go down the "boys will be boys" route. I do think that there is an important conversation to be had about how we raise the next generation of men, and many people refuse to see that. Saying things like "I raise my boys and girls exactly the same" is denying the fact that obviously isn't working. We owe it to both our boys and our girls to look properly at this issue. There is too much denial going on!

I genuinely don't think I'm raising my boys any differently personally. Like I said my eldest isn't really into sports, play fighting, even computer games he isn't fussed by. He likes reading and craft. As a young child he liked cars and blocks but he also loved dollies. I have noticed he is the odd one out at school though as he really doesn't like boisterous games.

@Choobakka "I genuinely don't think I'm raising my boys any differently personally"

I think that's part of my point. I think we need to approach raising boys and girls differently. The societal pressures and expectations** on them are so different and we need to find ways to counter them.

The problem I see is that far too many parents go down the "boys will be boys" route

This, in essence. I overheard exactly that line being used at a kids' party last weekend, where a slightly older boy was going round repeatedly smacking 6-year-old girls' bottoms. When one girl came to complain about this to her Dad, saying that her bottom was a private area, she was given short shrift with this response and the boy continued unimpeded, while being smiled at benignly by his own parents.

Social conditioning around this kind of 'trivial' incident is exactly where all the Gregg Wallace-style entitlement in later life stems from imo. I also see it regularly in schools I've taught in and still visit, where boys take up all the space in the playground and girls are confined to the edges - again, 'boys will be boys' was spouted in these contexts. In the class I volunteer in weekly, around 3/4 of the teacher's time and mental bandwidth is taken up dealing with a group of 6 or 7 boisterous, poorly behaved boys, while all of the girls and the less typically 'Alpha' boys sit quietly waiting to carry on.

What with this, porn and incel culture and the way the louder, more 'macho' boys are allowed to dominate in my DD's own class, I now strongly favour a girls-only environment for DD's secondary education.

I think boys are fab (DD's current 'bestie' is a lovely, kind, clever boy) and in many ways I feel sorry for what our society in its current incarnation is doing to boys and men as a group, particularly white working class boys, who I think are sorely misunderstood and underrepresented. I hate the dull, static primary curriculum, which I can see doesn't suit the livelier boys at all, and I wish more schools would have the courage to abandon the endless PowerPoints and teach more content through exploration, outdoor learning etc (I actually think this would benefit everyone, not just boys). And I can see very clearly that our utterly broken SEND system is impacting most severely on boys. But pragmatically, there is so much toxic masculinity around at the moment, and so many badly messed up boys and men, that I want my daughter to be given the chance to develop a strong identity as a woman before being exposed to the 'real world'.

I genuinely don't think I'm raising my boys any differently personally. Like I said my eldest isn't really into sports, play fighting, even computer games he isn't fussed by. He likes reading and craft. As a young child he liked cars and blocks but he also loved dollies. I have noticed he is the odd one out at school though as he really doesn't like boisterous games

That's really lovely, and your DS sounds a lot like my own DD's close 'boy friend'. You sound like a great parent. But DD's friend plays mainly with the girls precisely because he is different and doesn't really 'fit in', and most parents of boys like your son in our school would be fretting about them disliking football, insisting they attend football classes, despite hating it and worrying that as they choose to play with girls they 'must be gay'.

A genuine request that I had several times from parents as a Year 1 teacher was to try to keep their gentle, art and Lego-loving sons away from the girls during free time and send them outside with the other boys as 'they weren't being proper boys' (this was circa 2014/2015 - I think it's worse now).

How would you suggest I do that? Genuine question.

Cannot believe some of the comments on here, especially from @Nearlyamumoftwo . You sound like a what a stereotypical nightmare future MIL would sound like… saying girls are drama, spiteful, etc - wtf? I have one of each so I am not biased. Not that it matters - all children are individuals and should be treated as such without these negative, hyperbolic statements being thrown at them by grown ‘adults’.

(I assume you won’t appreciate the MIL comment, just like girls wouldn’t appreciate your baseless blanket statement)

I thoroughly agree with you and this was basically the point I was trying to make in my OP.

I have a DH who does 50% of the load (actually he does more than 50% at the moment as I'm so sleep deprived with the baby - does all housework, all laundry, all our older son's school stuff). I have a son who isn't boisterous or hyper or aggressive or any of the things people say boys are always like, and I have a brother who wasn't ever like that either. Surely other people must have these experiences too? My friends' husbands all seem pretty similar to mine.

Christ you've got this all wrong - my observation is that girls are encouraged to be strong and independent and it's creating sassy and bossy girls - a lot of people, not all, will agree with me but are afraid to admit it. Boys have their challenges too and certainly aren't angels. In terms of when boys and girls grow up - my view is that social media is making us look down on men and for people to feel sorry for boy mums. It's a shame.

Eh?I haven't made a single observation about girls in the post you just quoted.

In any case surely it's personality. I'm one of four - three sisters and a brother - and one of my sisters was a bossy, stroppy tyrant as a child but the other two girls (including me) weren't. My brother was a sensitive and gentle boy who has become a sensitive and gentle man but everyone including him would agree that, of the four of us, he was far and away the trickiest teenager.

@Choobakka Don't mean to be combative, but what's wrong with 'sassy and bossy'?

IMO 'bossy' in particular is one of the most pernicious (and earliest) misogynistic slurs - frequently applied to tiny girls who have opinions and want to lead. You very seldom hear boys described as 'bossy', because bossing/leading is seen as their natural place.

It isn't me making that point, it's a pp.

Ah apologies @Choobakka, I now see it's an earlier post by @Nearlyamumoftwo - still getting my head round how quotes appear in the app. My bad!

To the lady worried about boys playing with guns - unless they live in the USA and will hae access to guns later on I don't think you need to worry. Both my brothers and I, their sister had toy guns when we were young. None of us have been even tempted to go on the rampage!

I had a giggle at an article on Radio 4 where a teacher tried to stop some kids (boys) from playing with guns. They simply moved in to the buses and play pretended with sticks instead!!! Thinking on their feet!

@Choobakka I’d recommend you read Caitlin Morgan’s What About Men? A really interesting insight into what it means to raise boys in modern society. Covers everything from feminism (and why there isn’t a male equivalent), how men communicate, male suicide, porn, and why Andrew Tate is so popular amongst young men.

Actually you've just reminded me that my sisters and I used to play at shooting each other with sticks 🤣