Thread 12 Starmer: From Prescott to Rayner, working class grit

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5203242-thread-11-starmer-will-that-phone-call-be-to-harris-or-to-trump-the-decidedly-superior-looking-cats-thread?page=40&reply=139989436

However is there not a dichotomy that someone can choose to end their life, but not have a puff on a spliff ?

Well that's a whole different topic.

Agreed @Notonthestairs . Apart from Jenrick, the debate was mature and thoughtful. At the result there was none of the usual braying.

I'm glad it went through, but it's such an emotive and complicated subject and there is a long way to go.

Non reporter here.

If you use the Greek word for "hidden" I believe there is some automation that hides the post until MNHQ decide to keep it hidden 😀

Which isn't really a great reflection on MNHQ. If you can scan for that word ....

As for Zonder’s comment, I didn’t breach any guidelines; nothing’s “on me”. MNHQ will delete posts more or less on request, as far as I can see

That is rubbish @Rummly You are just pissed off because MN deleted your unpleasant, goady post. I reported it and have no regrets whatsoever.

If you think MNHQ have dealt with you unfairly, get in touch and ask them to reinstate your post. But I doubt they will as the talk guidelines say that "We will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant"

Incidentally, whatever happened to "living wills" ? They seemed quite trendy at one point. Maybe it's because I've not given this debate too much attention, but it seems the two topics are kinda entwined ?

Is it ? Surely they are both concerned with bodily autonomy. Or lack thereof. Something women should really be quite sensitive too ?

Rummly already discredited her own comment in her subsequent posts

She got deleted and my reply doesn't make sense anymore, ah well, we move on

Having redone my will and sorted my POA this year I must look into living wills.

I almost reported it. Came close. Unpleasant and unnecessary on a generally positive thread where we agree to disagree in good heart.

Thank you for your honesty.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree on the issue of consistency, unpleasantness and on what ‘to goad’ actually means.

As for whoever said “discredited”…🙄

I think the point is that other people think your post unpleasant and perhaps that might be the point to take away rather than berating others for their perception

That was me, you can use my name rather than whoever as you just read my post

My (con) MP voted for.

I'm sure the neighbouring town (con) MP voted for.

My MP posted on the newspapers why she was against. She makes sure all her opinions are in print in some RW newspaper.

Good news is she's become irrelevant and people mostly don't listen to her and her Fb page is just full of people who stand right against her or those ho think she should defect to reform!

Should my MP voted against.

Daft mistake to make when it completely changes the post 🫣🤦‍♀️

My MP (Lab) voted for. She seems a bit invisible so I don't know why but I'm hoping it's due to being a new MP settling in. Neighbouring MP (Lab), which is where I work, voted No and then got on the train, came to the High Street, spoke about building our community and turned on the Christmas lights. I'm actually quite impressed by the positivity.
I'm against assisted dying myself although I wouldn't judge people who made that decision. I'd prefer better pain relief and care for people in the last stages of their life. I'd worry that vulnerable people could be coerced or that the decision was made on financial grounds. This bill will need many checks and balances to ensure that doesn't happen.

I am pro the choice that this bill offers. I’m less concerned about the expansion of the law than I am about the reality of abuse. People who are dependent are very vulnerable; it’s easy to imagine that others are noble, but greed and cruelty are human behaviours easily concealed by a mask of concern. How you detect coercion seems to me very hard.

Gosh yes, I am totally in favour of the personal choice element of Assisted Dying, in case I haven’t made that clear. I’m not coming from a position of “only God can decide when we die” or anything like that. It’s just the potential for coercion and abuse, plus we had a glimpse during Covid of how the lives of people with disabilities (particularly learning disabilities) were seen as lesser by many. I don’t want a panel of doctors deciding anyone profoundly disabled would be better off dead and at the moment nothing I’ve seen reassures me that that wouldn’t be a future possibility. So if I had a vote, it would be a No vote.

DH and I had a very frank discussion last night about it all and how to make our wishes known and cast iron solid well in advance of old age or disability.

Concerns about coercion were the main focus of the email my MP sent to me. I hoped he would vote for but I respect his reply.

It is my experience that human beings who are abusive or cruel are very good at hiding it. They know their natures are different and it is hard to spot. Most often they reveal it to those close to them as the risk is tiny that anyone else will believe them. This is reflected in the abuse of women and children by men who are charming to absolutely everyone else. As a society we don’t handle this well to help those who are abused or manipulated now so I would think the same dynamic will easily apply. A lot of focus has been placed on the state driving this but to me the clear risk is family members.

Yes. I also worry how much sound mind it's possible to have if you've just been told that you have 6 months to live, and are at that time suffering from uncontrolled pain (as the reason you went to GP in the first place). How long does it take someone to come to terms with the new reality and get to the calm acceptance needed to make important life and death decisions? This is the point many conversations will start, when you are scared and vulnerable and easily manipulated.

Mentally also you are vulnerable. You can still take decisions but pain, agony, and when you are getting sicker, you find it harder and harder to do things that once would barely have required much thought.

I was once very ill and required years of strong painkillers (opiates). I remember that affected me in managing my pain, and I lost the capacity to work. Being very ill affects you mentally because your world gets so small and the decisions you make can be taken away from you rather easily.

I think satirists may as well just give up now...

😂Presumably if you select someone who is a bully, you are a bully-in-chief. Or you select someone gropey you are the groper-in-chief. etc etc blah.

if you've just been told that you have 6 months to live,

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/23144601.dr-feelgoods-wilko-johnson-overcame-pancreatic-cancer