Not liking best friends child

[Drymonsoon]

Regular user posting under a different name.

I’m finding a situation really difficult and I’m just wondering if anyone else has been in this situation and how did you get over it.
My best friend is more like a sister. We have been friends since we were just starting school age and are now both in our 40s. Our families are very close as a result. We see each other regularly in the context of family meet ups, so since adulthood it’s never been that we really go out together or do things together, it is very much like a sibling that you see every week and the family weekend gathering.

Friend has 2 children. I adore child one who I will call A. Well mannered, lovely child who I have all the time in the world for. Child B is 5 years old and has always been more difficult- think huge tantrums when not getting her own way etc. She is very bright and switched on and there are no SEN issues. The problem is, friend and her husband adopt the gentle parenting/no demand with her because of fear of her huge tantrums that disrupt every situation. As a result, they have raised a spoilt child. She is rude, spoilt, ungrateful and dominates every situation. They have admitted they don’t like going out in public with her incase she kicks off. Friend won’t take her anywhere alone due to her behaviour. Poor child A is told off constantly if they deem he is ‘winding her sister up’ or doing something that might set her off. He isn’t, he’s just being a child. I can tell he has started to recognise the injustice in this but he takes it all very well.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to be around Child B. Her behaviour and the blatant poor parenting that is causing it, stick out like a sore thumb.
For example- child B had a piece of a family members birthday cake. She asked her dad for more and he said no. She promptly waltzes into the kitchen, sticks her hand in the cake and tears off a chunk that she now is stuffing into her face. She walks past her Dad smirking, to which he just rolls his eyes and goes on his phone.
Another example- Child A’s birthday and he has a small pile of presents off family. Child B dives in and starts tearing the paper off. When told no, she throws herself on the ground and screams like she’s being murdered. Her parents then tell Child A that B will have to help open his presents. Screaming and tantrum suddenly stop and child B starts tearing open poor Child A’s presents.

They constantly allow her to have her own way and give into her to avoid a ‘scene’, but it’s getting worse. I would never in a million years say anything to my friend or her husband, but I’m increasingly struggling to want to be around them or be at family engagements. I love child B, of course, but right now, I don’t like her very much.

I come away from time with them feeling stressed and annoyed, but I love seeing my friend and the rest of the family.
Has anyone been in this situation? Will the little one likely grow out of this? I actually believe that if they rode out some major tantrums and stopped being so terrified of her reactions, she could be a lovely kid. There are moments that she is gorgeous.

Is it just a case of me staying away until she grows up a bit?

My best friend'a daughter is a spoilt sulky little madam. Instead of pulling her up on poor behaviour, they used to say how cute she was. I just avoided meeting her with the kids. Now the kids are older, it is better

@Thepurplecar where is your sympathy for the poor little bugger who is this child's brother? Who doesn't even get to open his own birthday presents and is constantly copping the blame for his sister's appalling behaviour!

OP, I think that being a true friend sometimes involves doing a really hard thing, which is taking the bull by the horns and having the difficult conversation with her about her daughter and the impact it's having on her son. Someone has to advocate for this poor little boy and it won't be his weak arse parents!

You will be speaking from a position of concern, not attack and even if (when) she bites your head off, she may well mull it over and see that her approach is not working and risks harming her son. She won't thank you but she needs to hear this and it would be better coming from someone she trusts.
Everyone is walking on eggshells around this but it's the elephant in the room, every time her child is present.

Schools don't always pick up on additional needs. My son was in 6th form before any teacher raised the possibility he might not be nt. If kids are achieving academically and aren't causing aggro in class, there's no reason for schools to pick up on it. My ds is undiagnosed but now he's in his 20s, I can see that something isn't quite right. So it could still be there's more to it than her being just wilful and badly parented. But the shit parenting isn't going to improve matters.

But I still feel like the things she is getting away with- climbing on her grandmothers furniture in her outdoor shoes when grandma asks her not to, and grabbing other people’s presents and opening them, are things that the parents of any child should step up and sort out. SEN or not.

I suppose it brings me back to the fact that I feel that basic manners must be adhered to be every one. SEN should not be an excuse.

But I’m going round in circles with this discussion now.

They are raising a Verucca Salt. Not every child has SEN issues on which to peg challenging behaviour, some are just spoilt brats.
Is there any way you could take the son out by himself? It seems a shame that he is suffering due to the non-parenting and having a difficult sibling.

If this is the case and her parents are shit then how about you step up and do something to help her. You say you love her then be there for her.

She climbs on furniture with shoes on you say go take your shoes off please, then we can play, I want to play x with you but if your being naughty we can’t do that, come on say sorry to granny for dirtying her sofa.

Dont turn your back and distract yourself when the bad behaviour starts, say why did you say/do that, I like it when you behave nicely, your so much more fun when you are being nice.

Gifts, excuse me dose that have your name on it, no that’s for someone else. Would you like me to open your presents?

You can say things firmly but without being mean. When she interacts with you then show her she’s much nicer to be around. You can cuddle her and say things like “ see isn’t it much better when you do as your asked”.

My 7yo DD has a couple of friends like this, one I tell her if she wants to come to my house to play she has to behave, not be cheeky as cheeky girls don’t play in my house. Another I’ve said I’m happy for you to come but you don’t get to say no to me ever, I ask you to do something you do it and you don’t break things that are not yours. I said these things from reception, I’m my house they behave, not so much for their parents but they know I don’t tolerate bad behaviour in my house and they live coming here to play and I get cuddles at the school gate from them.

Brilliant post! This is me with my 9 year old and has been since she was a baby. Some parents seem to say 'it's just the way he is', they've got x so what can I do? Obviously in some cases it would be very difficult to do anything but in a lot of cases I think more could be done. My nephew has ADHD and has had to be 'consciously parented' my sister in law would never say 'he's got adhd what do you want me to do?!'

@AliceMcK I did try with the present situation, which I explained in a previous post. I told her the present was for Aunty Susan and it could be easily broken so let’s wait to give it Aunty Susan when she arrives. She had a huge screaming fit and ran out of the room slamming the door, continuing to scream in the hall.

Her Grandmother was told to ‘leave her’ by little girls mum when she tried to intervene over the shoes on the furniture.

So it’s quite difficult, as you can probably appreciate from those examples. I also get the impression that my friend and her husband don’t want anyone else involved as it winds the little one up to be told no.

As a parent of a high-acheiving, masking autistic child who's gone through school where teachers really didn't see the autism despite the diagnosis, these parents need to pull their finger out and try parenting.

While a proportion of children with PDA do need low demand parenting, these parents' minimal approach is not working and given that they never seem to have tried upholding basic boundaries and consequences, the most likely situation is just that they have a spoilt child and sensible boundaries is most likely to help. If they did go down a referal route, parenting would be looked at anyway. If the child is ND, it's more likely that they would benefit from clear boundaries and how to behave.

In terms of OP's situation, I'd already have put my foot in it umpteen times with them by upholding normal boundaries of behaviour and probably solved the issue with them stropping off having taken umbrage.

The more diplomatic response is the suggestion of a pp by stating the boundary and deflecting it back to the parent. Ultimately I think I'd be seeing a lot less of them accompanied by the child.

It's great that awareness of SNs is increasing, but the reality is that it's more prevelant for there to be NT children with sloppy parents making excuses for children's poor behaviour. On the rare occasions my DCs' behaviour has not been up to standard, their teachers/ leaders have been pleasantly surprised that I've suppported them and upheld the boundaries. Having been on the other side, there's a huge amount of permissive excuse making.

Having put many years of above average effort into raising an autistic child and making sure he behaves appropriately, and isn't being set up with unnecessary triggers, I have limited patience with idle parents allowing their children to be a disruption (if they're clearly making an effort and struggling, that's a whole different situation and I'm sympathetic)

The parents are being unfair on their other child, OP and anyone else that the child interacts with. The teenage years will be very interesting...

I'm ancient and in my experience all the horrid children I knew grew up just fine and are lovely young adults

How will it go? If you withdraw for a bit will it get better? Maybe. Or maybe child a will go from chilled to anxiously trying to prevent child b's meltdowns to learning that Bs behaviour is far more effective and copying it.

(Or to be more controversial maybe parents will buy a private diagnosis of PDA though child can do what teacher tell them to at school)

Thank you for this very sensible and thoughtful response.

Crazy that you say there’s no SEN. The child is only 5 and formal diagnosis often takes place secondary school age.

I wonder if your friend has taken some professional advice because 'strip away all demands' is all I hear at work at the minute.

Obviously it's always been appropriate advice for some children but I can guarantee at the minute if somebody comes out to give advice on a child's needs at the minute one of the first things I'll be told is to remove all demands. Its obviously having its moment but it doesn't work for all children imo only those with a very specific set of needs.

Am shocked at the responses from people on this thread OP. Clearly if the upsets end when the point of conflict is resolved (ie allowed to have cake or what she wanted) then it isn’t a full blown autistic meltdown or whatever people are trying to imply. That is something different, and agree sounds like poor boundaries. Was interested in the moment where you said her Dad just said let her get on with it and went back to his phone. Is that an issue that he isn’t giving her the parenting she needs?

The child is almost school age. I would take advantage of that and start meeting your friend for child free lunches/ days out etc...

no child is badly behaved without reason. All behaviour is communication.

the kids only 5 so behaviours potentially could be down to school exhaustion and sleep issues. Two of mine were wiped out aged 3/4/5 going from staying at home to part time to full time education. Little angels in school, little sods at home. All fine and back to normal aged 6.

the other thing to consider is that the parents are likely just doing their best while you sit judgementally on the exterior. The reality is that you don’t understand the full dynamics, you’re convinced it’s poor parenting but don’t have specialist knowledge or training or experience with children to truly know. Be a good friend, try to give them the benefit of the doubt and kind support.

having worked with autistic kids for 20 odd years, I find the identified behaviours very typical female autistic behaviour which often goes under the radar at primary age. The masking well in primary school, then being overly sensitive and reactive at home is common female autistic behaviour. The fallout at home is a result of the pressure/anxiety/overwhelm felt conforming in school. The two are interlinked. I suspect she will reach secondary school and find the transition too overwhelming, then gain a late autistic diagnosis in her teens.

Also both children are clearly very sensitive but just expressing their emotions in different ways.

lastly consider why you are finding this behaviour particularly triggering. Some self reflection might help you process things better. If you really can’t cope with the child’s behaviours consider meeting without the kid.

look up PDA and ODD

children with autism are very individual. Some have PDA with gentle parenting type strategies being the main approach.

That’s how I’m fairly sure they aren’t autistic meltdowns.
She is easily snapped out of the screaming or crying by giving her a bag of crisps or another snack. It’s like a switch going off.
Her father is a nice bloke, but a bit ‘wet’. He adores the children but I notice he will conveniently ‘ignore’ or pretend not to hear something going on, even if he’s sat right next to it.
Child B once smashed something her cousin was building because she wanted the blocks (cousin had been playing on her own for a while, Child B had just come over). Her dad was sat right next to them on his phone and despite the big scene that followed, he just continued to look at his phone and act like he hadn’t seen. It was obvious he didn’t want to deal with it. Cousins mum came over to comfort cousin -and she was clearly very annoyed at the situation- and took cousin away to play with something else.
Child B’s dad then pulled child B onto his lap for a cuddle. He had clearly seen the whole thing happen but chose not to do anything. Child B then got off his lap and started playing with the blocks as happy as Larry. She is constantly ‘rewarded’ for her behaviour, so she knows if she wants something, she’ll inevitably get it. Cousins mum had a few choice words about the lack of parenting from child B’s dad, which I’m fairly sure he overheard (I overheard them and I was sat in the same room as him).

Kids do stuff like that, I get it, but there is never a consequence to her actions, so she repeats them and they escalate. Not long after this, Child B actually threw something at cousins head when she was asked to share it.
She does this to her poor brother too, and he is forced to give up what he’s playing with to keep her happy. He is such a mild mannered child but I can see he is starting to see the unfairness of it. I imagine when he gets a bit older he might speak up. I’ve just started to notice him mutter under his breath when it happens.

In fairness to my friend, she does attempt more discipline than her husband does. I’ve even heard her have a go at him about it on occasion.

What I will take away from this thread is that I will try to be more understanding when I am with them, but equally I need to try and limit this contact with her for my own sanity. It’s making me annoyed witnessing it, particularly when poor child A is being unfairly told off, or when gifts I buy for other people are grabbed by her.
There is a gorgeous little girl in there, sometimes she is a real sweetheart. Hopefully this is just a bad phase and she will outgrow it.

Family are being very tolerant but kids at school won't be. If dad doesn't sort himself out then his daughter will be the little girl who doesn't get invited to parties and play dates. He's really not doing her any favours by burying his head in the sand.
More importantly he's going to breed resentment between his children.

There’s really no way round this because it is very structural and about who the parents are. If they saw it your way, Child B would never have got here and into these behaviours. Just avoid where possible. No one is expecting you to like everyone.

If it helps, I know I am supposed to love my nieces and nephews but one of them I just don’t. He’s still a child and I can see he will turn into a charming and successful adult. I just don’t like him.

If she is really quite keen on you then you have an opportunity to influence her behaviour. You don't have to come down on her like a ton of bricks but you can say no, that's not acceptable. If you are doing something she's enjoying and you then withdraw from it due to her poor behaviour she will get the message and behave around you as she would her teacher for example.

Problem is she may well throw a tantrum so you have to pick your timing. I have a niece like this slightly. When I told her off for being unpleasant and bullying to her younger cousins [I was taking care of all while others were at a family funeral] she took herself off to have a giant sulk. I ignored her long enough that she gave up and came back and joined in nicely. Not sure what I'd have done if she'd thrown stuff around but that didn't come to pass.