Not liking best friends child

[Drymonsoon]

Regular user posting under a different name.

I’m finding a situation really difficult and I’m just wondering if anyone else has been in this situation and how did you get over it.
My best friend is more like a sister. We have been friends since we were just starting school age and are now both in our 40s. Our families are very close as a result. We see each other regularly in the context of family meet ups, so since adulthood it’s never been that we really go out together or do things together, it is very much like a sibling that you see every week and the family weekend gathering.

Friend has 2 children. I adore child one who I will call A. Well mannered, lovely child who I have all the time in the world for. Child B is 5 years old and has always been more difficult- think huge tantrums when not getting her own way etc. She is very bright and switched on and there are no SEN issues. The problem is, friend and her husband adopt the gentle parenting/no demand with her because of fear of her huge tantrums that disrupt every situation. As a result, they have raised a spoilt child. She is rude, spoilt, ungrateful and dominates every situation. They have admitted they don’t like going out in public with her incase she kicks off. Friend won’t take her anywhere alone due to her behaviour. Poor child A is told off constantly if they deem he is ‘winding her sister up’ or doing something that might set her off. He isn’t, he’s just being a child. I can tell he has started to recognise the injustice in this but he takes it all very well.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to be around Child B. Her behaviour and the blatant poor parenting that is causing it, stick out like a sore thumb.
For example- child B had a piece of a family members birthday cake. She asked her dad for more and he said no. She promptly waltzes into the kitchen, sticks her hand in the cake and tears off a chunk that she now is stuffing into her face. She walks past her Dad smirking, to which he just rolls his eyes and goes on his phone.
Another example- Child A’s birthday and he has a small pile of presents off family. Child B dives in and starts tearing the paper off. When told no, she throws herself on the ground and screams like she’s being murdered. Her parents then tell Child A that B will have to help open his presents. Screaming and tantrum suddenly stop and child B starts tearing open poor Child A’s presents.

They constantly allow her to have her own way and give into her to avoid a ‘scene’, but it’s getting worse. I would never in a million years say anything to my friend or her husband, but I’m increasingly struggling to want to be around them or be at family engagements. I love child B, of course, but right now, I don’t like her very much.

I come away from time with them feeling stressed and annoyed, but I love seeing my friend and the rest of the family.
Has anyone been in this situation? Will the little one likely grow out of this? I actually believe that if they rode out some major tantrums and stopped being so terrified of her reactions, she could be a lovely kid. There are moments that she is gorgeous.

Is it just a case of me staying away until she grows up a bit?

I agree that the parents are probably not managing this the best way but in my opinion the growling is a red flag for ASD. I've worked with many ASD youngsters and they can (not all of them) have a particularly distinctive way of growling when upset or angry. It is a way they express an overwhelm of emotion that they don't know how to deal with or process.

I can quite believe that the child might have ASD AND show little or no problems in school. It is well known that autistic girls in particular can mask very well at school and then have meltdowns at home.

The child is only 5 and is very bright. It is quite common for autism not to be recognised/diagnosed at this age and it to only be picked up later ( transfer to KS 2:or to secondary school are particular flash points) when the difference in emotional maturity/behaviour to NT peers becomes more marked.

Of course I'm not saying this little girl is on the autistic spectrum. I have never met her and I don't know but I think it is perfectly possible that she might be.

Having said all of that it might be useful for the parents to get a book or go on a course that helps parents with children who have autistic meltdowns. Their current strategies aren't working well and it may mean that they can develop other strategies that manage things better. They don't need an autism diagnosis to learn these techniques.

I do appreciate your points and take them on board.
I am diagnosed with autism myself, so I have a decent understanding of masking etc and I recognise that some children cope well in school and then struggle at home but I suppose my interactions with the little girl throughout her life really don’t give off any SEN alarms. I’ve known her very well since pretty much the day she was born.
I think because their first child has been so easy and never caused any issues, my friend has found child B quite a handful and when the behaviour was raised by a family member (who has a little girl of similar age who was starting to copy the behaviour of Child B when they were together), she wanted validation from school that everything was ok.

An example, friends grandmother tried to tell Child B not to climb all over the furniture with her shoes on (in grandmothers house, I must add) and my friend told her gran off and said “leave her, she’s fine”. Thats the sort of thing I find infuriating. Friends Grandmother just stopped talking and left child to carry on with the behaviour as she didn’t want to cause an argument. It’s things like this that I can’t get my head around. If my Nan had told me not to do something in her house, my mother would have backed her, not shushed her.

Child B or the little shit as one poster referred to them has undiagnosed SEN which aren't being met. Not because of a poor excuse for parenting but because of the attitudes of those around them.

The parents are struggling to manage those needs on top of which, rather than support from friends and family, they have to deal with THIS (voice of experience here).

It's your own behaviour that needs addressing OP. You could start by thinking about what sort of friend you are, whether you want to continue the friendship and how how you intend support your friend. That might be quite challenging for you so you may prefer to carry on disliking a 5 year old and blaming the parents for parenting the child they have as opposed to one you might like better.

And BTW OP, the child knows you don't like them. I was that child and it never leaves you.

Thanks for the reply OP. You sound quite experienced so, but everyone’s different so...

In the scenario you describe, not taking the shoes off doesn’t seem understandable at first, but I do have some sympathy as I know in certain children that would trigger a meltdown that could last hours. It is possible that your friend is letting things slide because she’s so afraid of dealing with the consequences, which would probably include shocking and upsetting her grandmother and cutting short her visit? She knows that her DD will refuse to behave and she will be hugely embarrassed so she avoids going there.

And yes, I absolutely do know it’s a bad message to give, but she possibly could be dealing with much more challenging behaviour than is usual? Lots of people on these sort of threads say ‘well I wouldn’t stand for that’ when they have a fairly easy-going, malleable child at home and have never been in a truly similar situation. I could understand why your friend doesn’t want to inflict meltdowns on her nearest and dearest tbh.

There are better ways to parent a challenging child though. Hope the book might help. And of course I might be completely wide of the mark.

Love how people are always so sure no SEN just because school says so.
Because there isn't many many children struggling with SEN and being told they aren't, are there?
There aren't swarthes of teens and adults being diagnosed, because it was missed.

Anyway, that's beside the point. You don't like how they parent, so stop spending time with them when they are.

She sounds spoiled and awful to be around.
Poor brother.

Lazy parenting.

The older brother sounds a saint in the face of this bratty behaviour that the parents indulge.

Weak Dad.

at a similar age, SIL was also telling everyone how well her DS was doing at school and how much he played with the other children.....

.... 5 years later he has very few friends and is also significantly behind academically.

Unfortunately, schools are often poor at picking up problems. Parents are also poor at picking up subtle hints from teachers or others or recognising poor behaviours - often ascribing them to external factors or focusing on something they think the child DOES do well and therefore the child can't possibly be autistic or have SEN (I see this a LOT).

And finally, children with additional needs DO mask at school.

Having said all of that, if the child can behave at school, and the parents think there is no SEN at all, then the parents should be asking themselves what they're doing wrong at home.

So SEN or no SEN, your friend is failing.

This is Mumsnet where a child can’t just be a pain to be around without a “Diagnosis “
Every child, even the most social can have their moments- But sounds like this child is allowed free rein to behave exactly as they like, and to hell with anyone else whom her bad behaviour impacts ( Her brother and grandmother)

Gah it’s so hard, my second is much harder work than my first and probably harder to gel with for some outsiders. It isn’t always a nurture thing but some kids personalities are just more ‘explosive’. Whilst I would obviously never let my kid grab a handful of cake and eat it defiantly in front of me, I am deffo more lax with some behaviour whilst out and about so we all have a nice time and there is less conflict. It’s tiring having a difficult child and you cannot die on every hill. Just a different perspective.

No body likes to think they are the reason for bad behaviour, so that might be way your friend feels defensive. If by admitting their child has behaviour issues, it would also mean admitting they didn’t do enough to control it. Maybe have a girls catch up over lunch/drink/whatever and see how she feels. I know you said you wouldn’t feel comfortable asking her directly, but you could start with how is everything? Even a light hearted ‘it must be nice to have a bit of grown up time, don’t know how you manage with 2 kids.’ As a parent of 1, I hold my hat to those with more than 1 child and still stay sane!! If she pretends like all is well then you have your answer. But she may also turn around to you and say actually child B is getting too much and I dont know what to do. Then you could gently suggest some ideas. Maybe even an after school/weekend club so they learn rules are important but you can still have fun. It would be a shame to throw away 40 years of friendship because of her child, and I’m sure your friend would feel the same.

Gosh, who rattled your cage?

I assume you have (or were) a child with challenging behaviour, SEN or otherwise, to react this way.

Does nobody take responsibility for parenting nowadays? Does everyone need to seek a diagnosis of something to make themselves feel better about their parenting struggles?

I have autism, yet I was parented correctly. I was shown how to behave in public and at home. I was not allowed to be rude or disrespectful. If my parents said ‘no’, that was final, regardless of how I felt about it.

Judging by a lot of the replies on MN about SEN, and the need to label every tricky child, something has gone horribly wrong in society. God help us when this generation become adults.

Agree completely, there’s no excuse for not backing an adult up when their child has their dirty shoes on your sofa and they’re trying to tell them to get off. It shouldn’t even have needed her Gran to ask. The child’s mum should’ve been on top of that.

It shows an absolute lack of consideration for others. If that’s how she behaves in family houses she will eventually do that in restaurants, public transport etc too where it’s actually not allowed to have your shoes on seats and someone else ( a passenger, a conductor, a customer) may end up telling her off.

Yes exactly, my friend I referred to upthread - her kids are just enabled by her and that’s it. It’s very simple. To her credit she’s never used SEN as an excuse and none of them have any diagnosis or anything. As far as we know they are NT.

Thank you. I’m reading some of the comments and starting to think I’m going mad. Do people really think it’s acceptable for a child to climb on another persons furniture with their shoes on?? SEN or not, there are some things that parents need to deal with, regardless of the tantrum/meltdown/consequences. Some things are non-negotiable, surely?

I also don’t think I’m being unreasonable to expect a child not to grab and open presents I have purchased and gift wrapped for someone else. Again, SEN or not, is this not just good manners?

Sometimes I want to stop the world and get off because I genuinely can’t believe that parenting has come to this.

No, of course none of those things are reasonable or acceptable. The point is though that some SN need very different parenting approaches to standard ones.

It sounds as if the parents have tried whatever they did with their elder child and this has resulted in incredible meltdowns that are hard to handle. It seems likely (though of course I don't know) that telling off, being stern and removing privileges have made meltdowns worse. I'm saying this because these strategies are the ones most parents naturally know about and try. Of course they could have been poor and inconsistent at using these but maybe they have just resulted in full on meltdown for hours and hours.

They have then tried not to trigger the meltdowns and this has resulted in the current situation. Your autistic traits and your response to your parents' parenting may be very different to this little girl if she is neurodiverse.

The parents need support to find a different way of parenting that works in this situation. I don't know whether the little girl is nearodiverse or not but looking at some strategies for parents of neurodiverse children may help.

I don’t think this is fair @Drymonsoon.

As you know there is a huge spectrum of autism. Just because you were able to behave appropriately in public (or private) does not mean that other ND children have the same capability- especially aged 5. A public meltdown can’t be used as an indicator of poor parenting. Efforts to avoid them on the part of the parent may be misunderstood.

I can’t be sure, but I think it’s likely that your friends could do with some help and support, not censure.

I mentioned it before but it’s very common that the usual parenting strategies simply do not work when a child is neurodiverse. They can make things worse. This is not always the case of course, and you seem not to have experienced this, but it’s common. Your friends may still be at a loss how to manage their child’s behaviour and need help. I think you should at least consider it a possibility before writing them off.

Just to point out, what you describe is permissive parenting, not gentle parenting.

I still believe that there are some things that need parenting, regardless of the child’s reaction. A bit like a child not sticking their hand in a fire, or racing across a road.

A child grabbing someone else’s gifts and opening them is poor behaviour. As is a child climbing on someone else’s furniture in outdoor shoes. We aren’t talking about a child in a special school here, she is in mainstream school and doing well. So she can follow instructions when needed.

To me there are basic manners that any child, apart from those with very severe problems (perhaps unable to be in mainstream school) should be expected to follow. Tantrums/meltdowns might follow, but it’s up to the parent to deal with that.

Why do you think we have so many badly behaved children in schools? Why are teachers leaving in their droves? Why can’t you walk into a shopping centre without encountering out of control/screaming children? Because people are using SEN as an excuse for not challenging poor behaviour. Because they are frightened of having to deal with a meltdown or tantrum so it’s easier to just let it go.
For the majority of children, SEN or otherwise, basic manners and decent behaviour should be non-negotiable. Yes it might be a lot harder for an SEN parent, yes they might have to deal with far more extreme behaviour as a result, but if you have children, you take the chance that you might be a parent to this type of child. You are trying to raise a human being, regardless of whether they have SEN or not, who needs to conform to social boundaries in order to be able to progress through life.

What has happened to parenting in this country?? It’s the basics. The very basics.

I have a friend with a child who is poorly behaved. The child is mean to other kids in the group, hitting, pinching and biting them and tantruming when she doesn’t control the game etc. her parents ignore it and even if she’s hurt another child don’t tell her off, make her say sorry. They are very permissive.

their daughter knows what she is doing is wrong as she is sly and does a lot of the hitting when her parents aren’t there.

this has resulted in many in our friendship group not inviting her child any more. We just don’t want our children hurt and their games ruined. We love our friend but now try and do adult meet ups to avoid her spoilt daughter who is never disciplined spoiling social gatherings (no SEN)

@ByHardyRubyEagle (sorry it won't let me remove your tag so this is not aimed directly at you but for everyone staying it must be SEN)

SEN or not SEN though the behaviour is not acceptable/potentially dangerous and as @ByHardyRubyEagle said there are times she has had to helicopter her autistic child to prevent behaviours/situations occuring. Which these parents are not doing. If they know the child wants to open presents then they need to be keeping the child occupied away from the presents. Even if the child has SEN that's not an acceptable reason to just let them do what they want all the time surely?

As the mother of three children with SEN I’m am so sick of people putting bad behaviour down to SEN. It’s like bad behaviour is the only thing associated with SEN and that is the furthest thing from the truth.

OP has said nothing that suggests SEN and so much that suggests bad parenting. When a child is presenting like this the first thing to do is address parenting. Parenting courses and classes, the parents have to change. To expect a six year old to change is lazy parenting. Parents should be doing everything they can to effectively parent their child before looking at getting them diagnosed and expecting a child to change their ways.

Also I want to add - that you still have to parent a child with SEN. It can be distressing and upsetting putting in consequences when a child has a meltdown because it hurts to see your child hurting like that. However you have to parent them, it’s your job even if it causes a melt down.

I don’t think anyone is saying that the parents are doing a great job here though.

Some of us are suggesting that they might be still struggling to find the right strategies to parent if the child has unidentified additional needs. They’re getting it wrong, but things may be more difficult than usual and the typical parenting approaches may not be working for them. I know with my own ND child it took quite a while to figure out how best to deal with poor behaviour. What worked for their siblings often had no effect, or just made things worse or escalated things.

This is only a possibility of course, but I don’t think it’s one OP should be dismissing out of hand.

Yep

And that's OK if as a child you were unlikeable.

Adults don't have to like you of like in this situation you bring nothing but problems.