Not liking best friends child

[Drymonsoon]

Regular user posting under a different name.

I’m finding a situation really difficult and I’m just wondering if anyone else has been in this situation and how did you get over it.
My best friend is more like a sister. We have been friends since we were just starting school age and are now both in our 40s. Our families are very close as a result. We see each other regularly in the context of family meet ups, so since adulthood it’s never been that we really go out together or do things together, it is very much like a sibling that you see every week and the family weekend gathering.

Friend has 2 children. I adore child one who I will call A. Well mannered, lovely child who I have all the time in the world for. Child B is 5 years old and has always been more difficult- think huge tantrums when not getting her own way etc. She is very bright and switched on and there are no SEN issues. The problem is, friend and her husband adopt the gentle parenting/no demand with her because of fear of her huge tantrums that disrupt every situation. As a result, they have raised a spoilt child. She is rude, spoilt, ungrateful and dominates every situation. They have admitted they don’t like going out in public with her incase she kicks off. Friend won’t take her anywhere alone due to her behaviour. Poor child A is told off constantly if they deem he is ‘winding her sister up’ or doing something that might set her off. He isn’t, he’s just being a child. I can tell he has started to recognise the injustice in this but he takes it all very well.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to be around Child B. Her behaviour and the blatant poor parenting that is causing it, stick out like a sore thumb.
For example- child B had a piece of a family members birthday cake. She asked her dad for more and he said no. She promptly waltzes into the kitchen, sticks her hand in the cake and tears off a chunk that she now is stuffing into her face. She walks past her Dad smirking, to which he just rolls his eyes and goes on his phone.
Another example- Child A’s birthday and he has a small pile of presents off family. Child B dives in and starts tearing the paper off. When told no, she throws herself on the ground and screams like she’s being murdered. Her parents then tell Child A that B will have to help open his presents. Screaming and tantrum suddenly stop and child B starts tearing open poor Child A’s presents.

They constantly allow her to have her own way and give into her to avoid a ‘scene’, but it’s getting worse. I would never in a million years say anything to my friend or her husband, but I’m increasingly struggling to want to be around them or be at family engagements. I love child B, of course, but right now, I don’t like her very much.

I come away from time with them feeling stressed and annoyed, but I love seeing my friend and the rest of the family.
Has anyone been in this situation? Will the little one likely grow out of this? I actually believe that if they rode out some major tantrums and stopped being so terrified of her reactions, she could be a lovely kid. There are moments that she is gorgeous.

Is it just a case of me staying away until she grows up a bit?

I’d stick to adult only catch ups. If she asks why, you can (gently) explain that you find B’s behaviour very difficult, as you know she does too. It’s very difficult; I’ve had a close friendship blow up over ineffectual parenting because unfortunately it does colour your view of the parents!

I shall repeat again that the child does not have SEN.

Those who are insistent she has SEN, she really doesn’t.

How can you possibly know that OP?

No diagnosed SN or neurodivergence (at 5!?) does NOT mean the child has no issues. Surely there’s a possibility that she may have unrecognised problems?

I mean it may all be due to poor parenting, but the fact that there is a perfectly behaved sibling argues against this somewhat.

Isn’t it possible that the parents have seen absolutely epic meltdowns at home and are trying to do anything to prevent them happening when they’re out and about? Or when they have friends over.

You may be right, and SN may not be in the mix here, but I find it a little odd that you are so insistent about it. I mean, she’s only 5 and often ND becomes much more obvious as a child gets older.

You literally could be writing about my children!

our second child (3) is just like this and we are are STRUGGLING.

we tiptoe around trying not to set her off most days. We have tried everything and nothing works.

Just wanted to give you the other side of things.

ask your friend if she’s ok, because she probably isn’t.

Growling sets off my SEN spidey senses. 2 of my DNs are like this - bright as anything, ahead of other DC in their class at school but emotionally much younger, with huge difficulties with impulse control and emotional regulation. Both now diagnosed ASD / ADHD. One (the girl) not diagnosed until she was 11. The youngest doesn't have any of these issues. All parented the same.

SEN parent here…

My beloved friend from antenatal class whose daughter is the same age as my eldest, was parented like this and was a bloody nightmare. Spoilt madam, growling, snatching, corking tantrums. Her Dad was calm and consistent but her mum, in all other ways a sensible woman, couldn’t say no to her. Ever. There was rather a tragic back story and this wee girl’s tantrums and tears pressed some big buttons for her mum and she gave in every time.

It took a combination of things to make a difference - mainly school - she saw how her girl could and would behave beautifully for everyone else - and senior school when the child had worked out for herself that being a dick was deeply unpleasant.

Shes 17 now, and a lovely kind creature now, you’d never guess what a fecking bollix she was.

We (the other mums) all privately said to our friend that we would see her on nights out when it was all adults and perhaps the kids didn’t mix so well…

Re SEN - it comes in many forms - I watched mine tonight at the barbers describe in incredible detail how the front of tanks vary between manufacturers. The poor barber, he tuned him out. 😁Mine aren’t rude, they’re just a bit subject-focussed.

My ds is nearly 6 and he would behave like this if I didn’t bother parenting him. He has always been such a handful, an impulsive little whirlwind, and is currently being assessed for ADHD. He’s also very intelligent, argumentative (and actually quite a good arguer!), and strong-willed.

I have put SO MUCH hard work into parenting and I continue to do so. I have been stressed, burnt out and depressed from it. When he was 3 years old all I wanted to do was jump on a plane and leave everything behind. I couldn’t take him anywhere/do anything without being constantly stressed. Nevertheless, I never allowed his behaviour to dictate or ruin everyone else’s experiences. There were many occasions where I simply had to leave the room with him/take him away to cool off- the present opening situation is one where I absolutely would have take him outside for the inevitable tantrum.

I would describe it as having to ‘consciously parent’ every single second and situation to prevent it from getting out of hand, and having to watch and anticipate any escalation in behaviour. That’s just what some of us parents have to do. Regardless of whether she is neurodivergent or not, her parents have decided not to set any boundaries and that’s so unfair on her and everyone else. I now have a sweet nearly 6 year old who knows where the boundaries lie, even if I have to constantly remind him. I absolutely dread to think of what he’d be like if I’d given up.

Op, I also would not be able to stand back and allow the emotional abuse they are inflicting on their first born without saying anything. They clearly don’t see what they are doing to him by making him second best.

They are lazy and entitled with how they allow their child to behave. There’s no way I could stick around without saying something.

Been there and have a wardrobe full of the Tshirts. Close friend, one SEN child and two NT kids. Two of the kids behaviour is not as bad as your friends, but not too far off. I have one kid that is set off easily so to avoid spending time together with kids. I don’t see her as often, but that’s ok. I can’t take the stress. My kids throw a fit if they come over as they trash my kids rooms.
There is no solution other than avoiding them. You can’t stop the behaviour.

The parents have spoken to teachers about this. Please read the post where I explain the child is well behaved in school and receives glowing reports.
Why does every armchair expert have to try and diagnose SEN when a child is badly behaved? Poor parenting still exists. You only have to go into your local shopping centre to witness displays of it.
I have good friends with SEN children and believe me, I know the difference.

Why does every armchair expert have to try and diagnose SEN when a child is badly behaved? Poor parenting still exists. You only have to go into your local shopping centre to witness displays of it.

ND adult here and completely agree.

I would be very surprised if that little child doesn't have special needs. I don't think the parents are helping much but the way you describe her behaviour doesn't sound like the behaviour of a purely spoiled child.

I've read all your posts op but not all responses.

Firstly this is not gentle/non demand parenting its permissive parenting.

Secondly the only thing I found worked in a similar situation was when at our home I made the problem the parents so stuff like.

Oh we don't permit them to climb.on the TV in this house can you deal with it?

In this house the birthday child opens their own problems. Please can you deal with her?

This is Aunt Susans party and your child is opening her presents can you please make her stop.

We do not permit our children to take more cake after they were told no can you please ensure she doesn't gets more?

Actually make them parent their child. Make it more work for them.

In my case as child grew older they actually liked coming to our house where there were clear boundaries. Would eat stuff at ours they refused at home but is VERY hard to sit on your hands I am more of the "it takes a village" approach and have no issue telling children off that misbehaved and nor did close friends just this one friend. Yes it was infuriating.

I like this approach. I wonder if I can try it with SIL .....?
"SIL - he's being extraordinarily rude at the table, can you deal with it?"

haha, unlikely. But I like the idea.

😂😂

Perhaps more in the vein of
In this house we don't appreciate talking back can you deal with that 😂

But no. Not likely to work

@Enko yeah, that ship has sailed. Dh did try a version, now I think about it, a few times when exBIL was still in the picture. But it definitely didn't work! And instead, we just stopped inviting them over very often!

OP - I think that's probably true for you too. The shop has sailed. Nothing is going to change at this point, so you probably need to subtly reduce the impact on you. In our case, it was by issuing fewer invites, and pretty much NO invites for actual meals. Even at Christmas this year - we'r enot seeing them on actual Christmas day and I've already suggested that when we do all get together I'll just do a sort of pulled pork bun type thing and everyone can come and go and help themselves... mostly just so I don't have to deal with the behaviour.

Another ND adult here and totally agree.

Not all SEN people are badly behaved.
Some parents just can't fucking parent their little darlings and are setting them up to fail.
Some kids are little shits because they have lazy, enabling parents.

Sorry, just skim read the thread so not sure if anyone has suggested this, but the child is being spoilt and needs to learn new behaviours, which takes time. A way to start would be lots of one to one time reading her books with morality instruction and asking her how she feels about them. Start with Beatrix Potter's Tale of a Fierce Bad Rabbit - "How do you think the gentle rabbit felt when the fierce rabbit took away his carrot?"

And to this, my mum is a teacher. She isn't surprised at all. Kids are feral, because of my point above. She has said as a whole children are much harder to teach because of their behaviour and parents are much more in denial about their kids shitty behaviour than 20 years ago (when she was also a teacher) - she said the same thing, most of them are NT.

The child being very intelligent and well-behaved at school does NOT necessarily indicate she has no SEN. (Look up masking and autism in girls for example). Shit parenting alone doesn't explain why her behaviour is so different from her brother's who has the same parents.
But the cause of her behaviour is not your issue - your question is how you should react to it. Seems to me like you have 2 main options:
A: carry on as you are and ignore it/tolerate it and pretend all is ok (as you've been doing more or less for your friendship's sake)
B: say or do something different.

If you feel you can no longer do A then you have to go with B, so your next choice is whether you speak to your friend or just withdraw from being in their company without explanation.
As a good friend, talking to her, explaining that you find the dynamic very difficult and offering support is maybe the kindest option. Friend might be insulted and angry or hurt, despairing and devastated but in the long run you may be helping your friend and both her dc more by being honest that you can't cope with her dd's behaviour than you would by saying nothing.

It could be a slight combination of both. My DS (4) is a lovely, sweet child, but can sometimes have a huge melt down. We’ve just had a glowing report from school. Very bright, ahead of peers and is well liked, but nursery flagged something last year and we were referred to get an assessment. I also had queries but probably wouldn’t have addressed the situation further, but since nursery pointed it out, I agreed to an assessment. At the assessment, we were
told that they can see why issues were pointed out, but it’s currently very mild, and potentially slight Asperger’s but a diagnosis wouldn’t help as he is a well rounded child, and able to behave well. This being said, DH and I have always been quite strict. DS is told how not to behave, and is told in advance that if he behaves in X way, then Y will happen. In the past, we have left many ‘fun’ places like the park or soft play, and told that we won’t be returning for a while. We now get told how lovely DS is and how well behaved he is. We make sure he has plenty of fun, but also understands there are certain rules. That being said, sometimes there are epic meltdowns that we just have to ride out.

I think they are enabling the problem. Reminds me of when I was in a shop and a mum was saying to a friend that she doesn’t have much money as she always has to buy her child a toy when out, because if she doesn’t then he kicks off. Sometimes you just have to tough it out

Sometimes you just have to tough it out

This. I think also children are babied now for too long. Too many parents are dismissing poor behaviour saying that it’s normal at that age. You still have to fecking parent them so they realise what is acceptable behaviour and what isn’t. They will continue things like tantrums, hitting etc long past age it’s normal if you let it happen.
My youngest is 22 months and is very strong willed (everyone who meets him finds it hilarious how stubborn he is) it would be easier to give in to him for a quiet life but that wouldn’t be fair to him or his siblings. Long term it will be way easier put in the boundaries now than doing it when he is 4 or 5.

For all those saying because eldest is well behaved this means possible SEN for youngest. Seriously no two children are alike and have different personalities and traits.

Also SEN doesn’t mean badly behaved. My ND child never gave me a bit of bother and always does what he is told.

OP honestly what can you do here but distance yourself. It would be very different if they were actually trining to improve her behaviour. They have really dug a hole for themselves here.

It doesn’t matter whether this child has SEN or not. She’s being parented badly. When given the opportunity to manage her behaviour, they are not doing it. That’s an observable fact.

OP does your friend even acknowledge that the behaviour is unacceptable? If no then there is nothing you can do or say that will change the behaviour and best for you to distance.

She does in a light-hearted sort of “what did I do to deserve this?!” way, but when it has been raised seriously by family members, she hasn’t taken it well. Perhaps this could be down to knowing people are right and feeling defensive about it. Still, I wouldn’t feel comfortable bringing it up.
Both her and her DH are very quick to bring up how well little girl is doing in school and how the teacher says she is very helpful in class. I think this is an attempt to deflect her behaviour at home, but the reality is it just shows that she obviously can respond well to boundaries and discipline in a school environment.

I read all your posts before posting @Drymonsoon.
My DC’s nursery and teachers didn’t recognise that my child had autism for quite a while (several years). DC didn’t present in a ‘typical’ manner, eg was very sociable.

There are countless threads on MN where parents speak of their difficulty in getting schools to recognise the problems their child is having at home (because they mask at school).
So I wouldn’t accept a teacher’s pov as proof, especially as the child is still so young.

To be absolutely clear, I am not saying this child has additional needs. I don’t know, how can I? I’m just curious how you can be so absolutely sure they’re not a factor in a child so young.

Personally I think it’s not possible to be so sure at that age unless you have vast experience as a professional in the area. People can present very differently so even if your friends’ kids have SEN, I think it’s a bit arrogant to assume you’ll recognise issues in everyone.

These parents are clearly struggling for whatever reason and are handling things badly. Parenting a child with additional needs does often means the usual parenting strategies have to be modified and a different approach taken. This does not mean the child gets to rule the roost, but is it possible they just haven’t things figured out yet? Would it help to talk to your friend and see if she’s struggling too? You mention she has already spoken to teachers about her child’s behaviour, so it seems she already knows it’s atypical and may be wondering if there’s something wrong.

Forgot to say The Explosive Child by Ross Greene might be of some help to the parents.