People of the left, can we learn some lessons from Trump's win please?

[Outandinbout]

And other things, like Brexit, the disaster that was Jeremy Corbyn and his campaign.

Whilst there will be multi-factorial reasons for the way all these votes went, one of the reason, imo, is that far too many people on the left think anyone who disagrees with them is thick and racist. Do you remember that mock advert for Labour during JCs campaign? ' You are thick and racist - Vote Labour!'. That raised laughs because it resonated with how people felt about the Left.

Just stop being so bloody certain you are right and everyone else is wrong and start bloody listening to people who voted the way you don't want them to. Figure out why that is. Realise they actually have some legitimate concerns. Find ways to address these.

Because, and I can't believe I actually have to point this out, insulting people is not the way to win them over. Addressing their concerns is.

Because its not smart to sit there smugly thinking you are always right, even when voters are repeatedly disagreeing with you. It feels nice to think that, yes. But all that means is that you lack the courage to move yourself out of your psychological comfort zone. Its lazy, not smart. And it shows a distinct lack of intellectual curiosity.

I'm pretty pissed at Trump winning as I support Ukraine. I think the Left in America needs to look pretty hard at itself as to why a candidate such as Trump has won. And the left in the UK has lessons to learn too.

I believe the far left will never win against the far right. Common sense and progress will happen in the middle.

Stopped the ridiculous hysterical laughing all the time would have been a start.

No one is saying it’s right, it can be wrong and true but perhaps they should have fielded a white man, actually got elected and then made changes. It’s a slow process.

You didn't provide any examples, just made a vague accusation so there was not really anything concrete to counter. I gave you a very practical example from the left.

My point was that people on the left, on this thread and many others about this election, are quick to describe themselves as the smart, critical thinkers, in contrast to the thick Trump voters. The promotion of gender ideology by the left shows quite clearly that the Left need to recognise that they are as vulnerable to ideological and unevidenced beliefs, even when those beliefs are actively harmful as gender ideology is, as anyone else.

My point is not that the the right do not do this (so even if you do give examples, I don't feel the need to respond to them, tbh), but that the Left do as well, and they need to recognise this.

Absolutely entitled to her view...just as other people are entitled to say she is wrong

caringcarer · Today 10:58

CurlewKate · Today 08:20
This is interesting-but I'm not sure what people think Harris could/should have done differently. **- what do you think she should have done?
**
Stopped the ridiculous hysterical laughing all the time would have been a start.

Yes, she obviously should have incited people to shoot a woman in the face, simulated oral sex with her microphone, accused immigrants of eating pets and generally spouted incoherent gobshite for hours on end.

Far less ridiculous than laughing 🙄

I think him and Vance are actual friends. And he is Foreign Secretary. Of course he has to be conciliatory. Vance himself called Trump ' Americas Hitler'!

Okay, I'm disappointed as I'm genuinely interested in your opinion, and you aren't the first person I've asked about this in a bid to try and understand, and the two other people did the same as you, just talked about the Left instead. But you aren't obliged to reply to me on certain things, so fair enough. Hopefully I'll find someone who is willing discuss soon, as I agree with your principle point that it's important to try and understand the others side.
As a sidenote to anyone reading - if anyone knows of any examples of people on the right talking about their own, or other supporters relationship to facts and evidence, WITHOUT just talking about the left, I'd be grateful if you could point me in that direction.

Here's a lesson. Not everyone thinks you're right.
Especially when you consistently prove yourselves to be wrong.

She's dim because she has a history of doing this and deleting her retweets when she gets called out. She either should stand by that she's retweeting and justify herself or learn from her mistakes if it was one. I will retract ' dim' and replace with ' disingenuous'
Insulting the intelligence of Black and Asian Conservative MP's on the basis of their skin colour is not insulting right wingers, it's insulting and patronising all black and Asian people by saying Black and Asian people are too stupid to know their own minds if they decide to be Tory/ reform etc. Not like White people who are allowed to be Labour, Tory, reform, revolutionary communist and be judged on their views not their skin colour.

@Seasmoke

"I think him and Vance are actual friends"

Intellectually Vance would run rings around Lammy- they are not even in the same ballpark.

@Seasmoke

Well there is a theory that racism is simply stupidity and ignorance, For example if you needed the best CFO to save a failing company then logically this should be done on experience, ability and merit rather than what shade their skin colour might be.

But either way Dawn Butler is a clear racist who has no place in Parliament either because of her racist views or because she is dim.

1dayatatime

Intellectually Vance would run rings around Lammy- they are not even in the same ballpark“

Wow. Vance must really be something because graduates of SOAS and Harvard tend to be pretty bright.

With all respect, I have engaged and answered your position. If that has not satisfied you, you appear to be trying to force me down an avenue which is not mine.

My point is that neither left or right have a monopoly on being smart, critical, thinkers or on being ideologically captured. There are smart, critical thinkers on both sides and ideologically captured on both sides.

The left however, as evidenced on many threads on the election (and Brexit etc) seem very keen to position themselves as smart and others as thick, and self-identifying left people do seem more keen to refuse to debate those they disagree with and to try to shut down speakers they disagree with.

Admittedly, my DS is 16 and just weeks into an A Level Politics course, but he also doesn't have any preconceived ideas about David Lammy, because hed never heard of him before. He watched quite a few of the UN conference and specifically pointed out how impressed he was by by David Lammy. As PP pointed out, he went to Harvard.

@MrsSkylerWhite

"Wow. Vance must really be something because graduates of SOAS and Harvard tend to be pretty bright."

Lammy went to Harvard on a Masters which is impressive. Getting into SOAS to study law less so.

Vance to Yale under a GI Bill.

Of the two Vance is by far the intellectual superior.

Who cares regarding intellectual superiority- Vance is more powerful. End. The idea that David Lammy will be able to outwit him is for the birds. Lammy has a good education but so what? Can anyone remember the last time the UK struck out with a foreign policy without the US? I think that was about 1967.

I think it might have stopped now

insulting people is not the way to win them over.

Ah but it works with the right. Trump (and Farage) insulted huge swathes of people and yet he/they still won. But the left, oh no, we're not allowed to say anything about their supporters, because that's wrong.

An equivalent 'Right' position, more so in US than here, is that anthropogenic climate change is an invention of academics and other 'shady' individuals to make money and/or even if it does exist, it's a way for 'elites' to put down and impoverish working people.
I think there are great similarities between Left and Right on the trans/climate change issues. I wonder whether it might partly be related, again more so in the US, to which global corporations fund which parties? Maybe the 'Left' gets more money from Pharma and the media companies which want to look 'progressive', and the 'Right' gets more from Fossil Fuels? (no idea by the way. I'm just musing)

My son who lives there says the General consensus is he won on economics and the current high cost of living is blamed on the Biden administration and they didn't have that under Trump.

I can't stand Trump.

It’s confusing and difficult to know what’s going on or what people really think because so many opinions have been made forbidden, the meaning of words has shifted quickly, hate speech laws have throttled debate, etc.

All this adds up to not much sincere debate out in the open, just bottled up frustration coming out in the voting booth.

But did the polarisation happen because of this, or has the move away from centrism to more and more extremism in a desperate attempt to win votes caused people to think like this? It's a bit chicken and egg.. also social media and the echo chamber effect.

I did an interesting experiment, my Dad appeared to have been radicalised by the internet into some raving right wing loon (he always voted Tory but was a centrist) and one day I looked at his Facebook feed (with his permission!) and I was absolutely horrified at what he was being pushed. So every time I saw him I went on and sought out articles with opposing views and clicked on sites like the Guardian. Gradually his feed became more balanced and he didn't even vote Tory (for the first time in his life) at the last election. I don't think you can underestimate the effect this has on people! I'm sure this happens on both the left and the right. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground left.

I would not say that the American Democrats are particularly far left! It could be argued that they're not even particularly left wing at all by most standards.

From observation I think the Right insult people who would never vote for them anyway but the Left tend to alienate people who would otherwise vote for them.