They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

We can't afford it! You are completely underestimating the amount of money we need to raise for a start and the amount of demands that are replaced on this money from social care, to SEN education. HS2, CGT, are just a drop in a very very vast ocean! This is what I mean about having sensible adult discussions about this rather than sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that the impossible is possible.

No country has the kind of health system that people are describing that would be necessary for AD to be implemented. Literally none! It is all just pie in the sky. Meanwhile in the real world, people are stuck living with the health system that we actually have and suffering because they can't choose to make an informed decision to end their suffering in a humane and dignified way. We are pumping money and resources into this barbaric practice and then telling others that they can't access drugs and treatment that could give them many more years of life.

It's unpleasant and hard to face but we really really have to live in reality here. Things are more likely to get worse not better as our population ages and we get sicker but with longer life expectancies. More and more people will be facing an absolutely horrific end to their lives unless we can do something to address this.

We wouldn't be choosing to kill people. People would choose for themselves when they want to die as they are autonomous beings that are in the best position to decide this. We as a society are currently overriding their wishes and insisting we know better than them.

The motivation for AD isn't about money but it is a fact that we don't have unlimited amount of resource and that money could undoubtedly be used in a better way than keeping people alive in absolute suffering that actively no longer want to be here.

You think there's a better way to spend money than on keeping people alive? That's diabolical.

This demonstrates it very clearly. Taking your example what if you are given a terminal prognosis which is now viewed as AD being your best option, but you do want to live for as long as possible. But those holding the purse strings now decide AD is really the best option for this condition because they'd rather spend that money on something else? Doctors language now slowly starts changing....instead of talking of managing the condition it becomes we have a solution - AD. It's better for you, better for your family better for our budgets...that's coercion. And we already see it happening abroad. That's where it will head.
What's the point of spending all this money on cancer treatment - only adds a few more years - the money is better spent elsewhere. Its a waste - we can use it to fund other things. We have already had a PM (thankfully only briefly in power) consider cost benefits of removing cancer treatment from NHS. Can you see, it's a slippery slope. I totally understand we do not want people suffering when they die. But that should be done through preventing them getting to that point with proper care, and for proper end of life care. I used to support AD, but I've seen and experienced too much to now realise its the lazy solution and as a society we should place higher value on health and life because a good death is possible but it seems that too is now going down the route of convenience and quick fix.

I must say I have always been a vociferous supporter of AD but this thread is really making me question myself. It’s a very complex issue, that’s for sure.

What is utterly diabolical is not recognising how painful, hopeless and utterly distressing it can be to be alive. I have the displeasure of seeing a dearly loved relative beg for death at the end of a very lovely life. Those last few months were harrowing and absolutely not worth living. Keeping him alive with barbaric! I will never ever subscribe to your view that life should be preserved at all costs, especially when the patient themselves pays the biggest price in suffering b

But you are missing the point. We need to improve healthcare to stop people getting to that point in the first place. Prevention is they key. No one who is against AD is saying people should suffer in death. We are saying they should never get to that position in the first place.

There are plenty of health care professionals on this thread and out in the wild that can tell you some peoples pain is impossible to manage. You can drug them into unconsciousness which in itself is a form of assisted dying. This is why doctors are so reluctant to prescribe drivers to do so nowadays.

So what would you like to happen? Effective pain management in the knowledge that it will kill a patient off, so assisted dying without legislation like in the old days. Assisted dying via legislation. Or what’s happening now which is suffering without effective pain management?

gamerchick · Yesterday 15:53

Iheartmysmart · Yesterday 15:39
** If that’s what they want then yes, why not. It’s their life and they should have autonomy over it.
There will be people who are happy with the idea of going into a nursing home or having carers getting them up, putting them to bed, changing their nappies, spoon feeding them and that’s fine, it’s their choice. There are also terminally ill people who want to live for every second despite the pain they’re in. Again, if it’s their choice then fine.
My choice would be to end my life when I can no longer do the things I enjoy and make living worthwhile. Why is my choice any less valid?

Because your wants would mean a death sentence for a slew of other people, who with a bit of help could thrive. Those people who are being made to feel like a burden and think it's the only way out. If you haven't been coerced into anything you won't understand.
It can't happen.
Anyone can opt out of life if that's what they really want. I don't think it should be on tap though

I understand your concerns. However, AD is already legal in the form of end of life care where medics are allowed to withdraw nourishment and water and wait for the patient to die a horrible death, observed by their loved ones. Average time it takes to die in this barbaric way is 2 weeks.
Would it not be far more humane to legalise an injection that allows someone to slip peacefully away?

Anyone can opt out of life if that's what they really want. I don't think it should be on tap though

They can’t if they are immobilised. People with MND, for example. They need assistance. Currently anyone helping them, out of love, could be jailed. That’s so wrong.

Yes, I understand this but I live in the real world and know that our capacity to do this as a society is extremely limited. No country in the world has cracked this problem completely and provides the kind of healthcare that people in this thread seen to think is possible.

Apart from the obvious issues with money and resource that I have outlined above that are extremely difficult if not impossible to solve, there are lots of cases like my Grandad where someone reaches a point in their life where their body and mind are beginning to fail them in multiple ways. We simply haven't evolved to live as long as many of us are living and it becomes very complex indeed for many people at the end. It isn't just about healthcare but about loneliness, quality life and identity.

My granddad was fiercely independent and didn't want to rely on anyone or be a burden. This was a source of pride for him and a huge part of his identity and self esteem. He did not want to be living for months or years in an old people's home where he required lots of care. He certainly didn't want to do this knowing that the creeping threats of dementia, cancer and hearing/sight loss were closing in on him. This is a personal choice and one that people should be empowered to make.

Those holding the purse strings already decide which life extending drugs and treatments terminally ill people have access to. It is already informed by a cost: benefit analysis as this is the reality of having a healthcare system without infinite funding.

I don't know what you think the alternative is? Please don't just suggest to pump more money into the system because we are never going to raise enough money to mean that decisions like this won't need to be made. Some of these treatments cost millions of pounds for one patient and it just isn't feasible to pay this kind of money.

@mumatlast14 I don’t really understand your comment. My dad had COPD and his treatment was excellent throughout. But no amount of health care was going to stop him dying. AD would have meant he could has slipped away peacefully rather than spend days struggling for breath and eventually pretty much suffocating to death. It’s the anniversary of his death in a few weeks and I still can’t get the image of his last moments out of my head. It was awful.

mumatlast14 · Today 08:53
But you are missing the point. We need to improve healthcare to stop people getting to that point in the first place. Prevention is they key. No one who is against AD is saying people should suffer in death. We are saying they should never get to that position in the first place

There is no realistic chance of this happening for a very long time.

my husband was admitted to hospital for the second time in 3 weeks, a week ago. He had been sent home too soon the first time because of bed pressure. The second time, we waited just shy of 50 hours in chairs in A&E after being assessed and admitted (that took over 4 hours). We were both shattered by the time a bed was found. It was on a mixed ward because there was nowhere else. Two elderly, confused and distressed ladies were crying out for help. The limited staff didn’t even have time to sit with them and help with beakers. Other patients and visitors were helping them.

Personally, I have recently had a “urgent” CT scan to assess a kidney tumour. The request was submitted after ultrasound in March.

The kind of healthcare you are - rightly - advocating is just not a possibility in the UK’s public health system.

Erm we can't improve healthcare to the point of preventing eventual decline and death.

It's not that simple though.
Firstly if they had received earlier diagnosis, quicker, better treatment would they even be in this position?
That's our starting point.
We also need to provide proper end of life care. That would be proper pain management.
By skipping this and going straight to AD we provide a legislation that has wider consequences which is proven to result in withholding viable treatment and care options.
We know DNRs which are meant to prevent resuscitation in patients should they stop breathing is being translated into them not being given treatment. The lack of treatment then leads to the patient dying. Its a catch 22 . We have seen some Healthcare boards place blanket DNRs on conditions not on patient due to caseload pressure not individual health outcomes.
As you can see the scope of discussion on who should have an option of AD is enormous and with that comes social pressure. Our focus should always be to help. With previous government cries of 'let the bodies pile high' we cannot trust funding and coercion will not kill people. Where does it end? Effective pain management in end of life care is very different to AD.

You're right, @mumatlast14 but with the best will in the world, that’s never going to happen.

I also live in the real world and would assume by your comments experienced more deaths. I have seen both peaceful and painful. What troubles me is your comments your grandad didn't want to feel a burden.

You haven't answered the question posed in the post you have responded to. We live in the real world where pain management is complex and it isn't always possible to manage it effectively even with a plan. What do you propose then? Focus on alleviating pain to the point it's a form of AD or let someone suffer in agony?

So instead of improving the system we'll just make death an option?

Shocking experience and sadly not unique.
But is the answer to offer early death via AD to you or to fix the system? I know what I'd prefer.

No one is suggesting that.

It may trouble you but this was his feeling and many other people feel the same way (including me!). I don't want to be a burden even if that burden is something that my loved ones are willing to shoulder. I would absolutely hate it! I am fiercely independent like he was and it hugely important to my quality of life that I feel that I can maintain this. Everyone is different but it is very worrying that other people try to override our feelings on this matter and imply that we are being 'silly' or precious when we state the importance of this.

I don't know why in this day and age we can't accept that we all have different value systems and perspectives. This includes views on life and death and the balance between the two. Some people on this thread seem absolutely sure that life is always worth living but I have seen enough of this world to know that this sadly isn't always the case for everyone.

Effective pain management is not AD.
In the sameway premeditated murder is not self defence.

I’m glad you said that as it’s exactly what I was thinking. My Nan received excellent healthcare during her long 96 years of life. Absolutely none of it would have stopped her getting up in the night for a wee, falling and suffering a massive and unsurvivable brain haemorrhage. Nor would it have stopped her slowly dying in hospital over a week during which time she had no food or water. Distressing for both her and our family watching her go through it.

But that does seem to be what you’re saying @mumatlast14. Your exact words were:

“It's not that simple though.
Firstly if they had received earlier diagnosis, quicker, better treatment would they even be in this position?
That's our starting point.
We also need to provide proper end of life care. That would be proper pain management”

Do you realise that early diagnosis and treatment doesn’t always make a difference? My dad was diagnosed early, had great treatment but he was still going to die in a horrific way despite that. No amount of pain management would make the slightest difference to him suffocating to death slowly over several days. Unless you can find the secret of immortality, people are going to die. The fortunate ones peacefully in their sleep, the unfortunate ones in pain and distress. Why should the latter not have the option of AD if that is what they want?