They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

T4
As per DNR decision it's a medical decision not patient or relative decision. However it's best practice to include the patient in discussion / inform them and the relative if pt lacks capacity. You may remember the media campaign about the end of life care pathway a few years ago - the name ended up being changed from Liverpool Care Pathway. Since then a lot of people distrust end of life pathways but all they do is stop unnecessary painful interventions and provide pain relief and relief of agitation etc.

@TheFreaksShallInheritTheEarth I don’t expect a doctor to administer anything, I would do it myself. Nor do I expect anyone else to feel the same way I do. But in my view, my life belongs to me and why should I be forced into a mere existence against my will just because other people would make a different choice for themselves.

So anyone who isn't enjoying life should be able to pop to the docs and ask for assisted dying and get it?

@Comedycook If that’s what they want then yes, why not. It’s their life and they should have autonomy over it.

There will be people who are happy with the idea of going into a nursing home or having carers getting them up, putting them to bed, changing their nappies, spoon feeding them and that’s fine, it’s their choice. There are also terminally ill people who want to live for every second despite the pain they’re in. Again, if it’s their choice then fine.

My choice would be to end my life when I can no longer do the things I enjoy and make living worthwhile. Why is my choice any less valid?

Because what does not enjoying life mean? Terminal illness, disabilities, money worries, low level depression, relationship breakdown, house getting repossessed, put on weight? You honestly can't see any problems with absolutely everyone having access to assisted dying for whatever reason?

And you would honestly want doctors to go along with this? Someone popping down to their GP surgery and requesting this?

Only the rich would be left and they wouldn't have anyone around to exploit because they'd have all jumped ship 😂

Because your wants would mean a death sentence for a slew of other people, who with a bit of help could thrive. Those people who are being made to feel like a burden and think it's the only way out. If you haven't been coerced into anything you won't understand.

It can't happen.

Anyone can opt out of life if that's what they really want. I don't think it should be on tap though.

You have absolutely no idea that those that would want AD would thrive with a 'bit of help'. This is such a ridiculously naive assertion to make. You might well be able to overcome the challenges they face but that doesn't mean that they can or even want to try.

We often see threads of MN when people say thay they don't enjoy their lives or really see the point of living. If something happened to these people that tipped the balance into opting for AD then who are you to say that this is objectively wrong? Why is life always the right option. You talk about condemning people to death but what about condemning people to life.

If you aren't enjoying a party and want to leave the last thing you need is someone insisting you stay and find a way to enjoy yourself.

The problem is the "of sound mind" bit.

It's really difficult to prove many people aren't of sound mind when to their family and the people giving them care, they're not of sound mind.

I care for someone with anorexia who swears blind she does not want to die, she's terrified of death, she wants to live but she does not want to eat. She's been sectioned a small handful of times because she's been assessed to not be of sound mind and also a risk to herself, and then she's also avoided any sort of treatment the rest of the time even during a section because she seems to be of sound mind when a mind that is cognitively aware that not eating = dying and they continue to not eat even though they dont want to die is not sound at all.

If you've any experience with disabled adults that are disabled enough to get into an assisted living placement, and if you've ever seen how that makes them feel, you'll know they're also likely to pass gillick competency assessments, but are vulnerable to external pressures as their living situation is often out of their control and life feels hopeless when better social care could improve their lives drastically.

There are a lot of adults that fall into this category of being mentally vulnerable and coercion can be really subtle. It can be relatives sighing and huffing and puffing when they have to do essential care for you and it makes you feel worthless, to knowing you've always had support to make the big decisions in life, and you ask for advice from your support people because you trust them and they talk you round to it.

I would hate for someone to watch their family members suffer a prolonged death but I'd also hate for someone to lose a family member because they were left in an establishment that they should be able to trust has their relatives best interests at heart and that has ultimately lead to AD instead of improved care outcomes.

I don't think you can take everyone's right for AD because there are some people that have limited capacity to give informed consent. If we set this precedent here then what about all other key aspects of life. Should nobody be allowed to have sex or consent to risky surgery because there are some people that exist in a grey area when it comes to consent?

I have a relative who does live in supported living and understand exactly where you are coming from but the rest of society can't be denied freedoms and rights because people like this exist.

The AD bill is only for those who are deemed to have capacity afaik
Capacity Ax can be done according to guidance / protocol

Wes Streeting is irrelevant. All MPs will get a free vote. His is just one opinion. 🤷‍♀️

I totally agree! Mostly I don't 'do' Politics, but feel there is such a strong argument for this, and that it would benefit people and the country in the long-run. Whilst I also appreciate the concerns that are frequently raised, I do not think that they should be allowed to impact on the choice of others. As a disabled person who is one injury away from being able to do literally anything for myself, and being left with a life I do not want, I would very much like to have the choice. Laws/Policies should not be dictated on the basis that a minority might abuse them.

For me it would need to be based on a quality of life issue, that I'd be very clear about beforehand. I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid of having a long drawn-out, unpleasant ending when I've already enjoyed a good life and would like to be able to leave whatever I have to charities etc, and my home for someone else to occupy, rather than existing with no independence whatsoever. It really ought to be my choice.

Like Brexit, this is one vote I would definitely turn out for!

Policy has already been made based on accepting preventable deaths because its (perceived) as 'only the old or vulnerable ' as we have seen since 2020. This term has been happily used to justify those decisions I will never trust or support AD.

Read the horror stories about people in Canada who are being killed for depression and how much investment there is into this not just being for terminal illness but anyone who feels their life isn't worth living. This is so open to abuse and we can follow what happens in real time and the more that comes out the more horrifying and distopian this looks.

I can tell you also a horror story of a person who had to live totally incapable of moving her own body, not able to even scratch her nose when it itched. Her body literally rotting from pressure sores and regular infections. Not able to control her bowels and then lying in her own filth until a carer came. On maximum doses on antidepressants and painkillers but still in pain and she suffered. She wanted desperately to exit her miserable existence but couldn’t. Terminal illness and depression are not the same thing and don’t need to be treated as such

But it's interesting isn't it, because one of the concerns about AD is that there will be a slippery slope towards non terminal illnesses, mental health, poverty, etc being included. Kim Leadbeater who introduced the bill is adamant there will be strict controls to stop this happening. Yet here you are arguing that it should be based on quality of life, rather than having less than 6 months to live. They could be really very different things.

I dont mean to comment on your personal circumstances here of which I of course know nothing, but you do specifically mention it should be quality of life. It is worrying to me that many people are already talking this way and saying that the current suggested legislation does not go far enough. Campaigners know that this first bill is the biggest hurdle, and will be pushing for a broadening of the criteria.

Terminal illness and depression are not the same thing and don’t need to be treated as such

They don’t, but as has already been seen in Canada it can happen. Euthanasia for mental ill health.

Search for Kathrin Mentler. A 37 year old woman with chronic mental health problems who went to hospital, in Canada, to seek HELP. She wanted to get better.
Instead she was horrified to be told that there was a long wait for a psychiatrist, and was offered assisted dying as an alternative.

As a PP said, a horrifying and dystopian situation. Terrifying that people are advocating for it here.

It's terrible. But shouldn't we be fighting for better quality care and innovation. Quick, fast access to diagnosis, better, individual treatment, better facilities and care options. Then maybe people wouldn't deteriorate because their illness would be caught early, better treatment would be provided and the end of life would be better managed. Instead of focusing on improving healthcare and illness prevention we are focusing on a quick death. There's no ifs or buts that this will coerce people to unnecessarily die because it will be economical. DNRs already translate into 'no treatment '. At what point will we eventually say, as an example, too expensive to offer x cancer treatment, survival is only for limited years, as AD is an option. Medical care is already rationed - and AD will further provide a get out clause.

It really isn't killing.

CPR is nothing like it is on TV, it is brutal. It is brutal on a fit young adult whose only medical problem is that their heart isn't beating.

If it wasn't the fact that it can (but not always) bring someone back from the dead everyone on a crash team would be prosecuted for ABH or GBH.

On a frail older people you are probably going to break a few ribs may cause pulmonary haemorrhage, and you may have prolonged life for hours or days.

What exactly does 'fighting' for better quality and care look like? It sounds like a laudable aim but ultimately what you mean is that we should be able to magic a hell of a lot more money and resource from somewhere. Have you seen the state of the country's finances and the outcry that the Chancellor is facing to raise enough money just to fill some of the deficit we have providing current levels of care? We as a country have an aging population that is getting sicker all the time. You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think we can afford 'quick, fast access to diagnosis, better, individual treatment, better facilities and care options' for everyone. Our debt is already the size of our GDP!

Economics kill people every second of every day. Living in the UK it can be less obvious than other places, but it is still a stalk reality of life. You need to accept this if you want a mature and sensible discussion about end of life. Most people can't access optimal care and there are lots of people that aren't being given life extending drugs when they desperately want to live because we can't afford to fund this. Alternatively you have people that have a very poor prognosis and no quality of life left to enjoy that want to die. We are effectively wasting money and resources forcing these people to live through an unnecessarily protracted painful death because we don't want to offer AD. Nobody want to hear this or accept this but the reality is that this money could have been spent extending and improving the lives of people that want to live. We don't have infinite resource or money and we never will have. If you fund one thing then it will ultimately mean that we can't fund something else.

Do we really want to waste billions of pounds forcing people that don't want to be alive to stay alive just because some people in our country think it's the best thing for them and think they know better than the individual themselves?

We can afford it... Hunt cut NI business and employee contributions by £27 billion, the scrapping of HS2, meant £29 billion poured down the drain...

Billions lost in covid support loans... written off.

We have choices, the Government can raise 14 billion by changes in CGT rates and changes in loop holes, such as moving abroad and then selling assets... no tax currently is collected, few countries allow this!

Other countries in Europe have far better health systems, how do they afford this? we aren't going to grow the economy by making the health of older people worse.... we are going to need to make sure that people in their 50s and 60s can work pain free for as long as possible, assuming they want too, which many many do.

Improving the funding of Hospices is essential and must be done, disgraceful the Tories cut this.

Choosing to kill people because we don't choose to improve our money management or change our values to believe health is important is not the answer.

I have. And I know that if they had had better access to diagnosis and treatment their outcome would have been very different. I also know this is not a one off as I support people in this area. Ignoring improving healthcare and instead providing AD is hideous.
I think those wanting AD think it will be a last resort because all other quality healthcare will have been exhausted - sadly it just won't have been offered.

The fact people are even discussing money shows you all you need to know.