They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

Consent isn't consent if it's not revocable, by definition, and if you've lost capacity then prior consent automatically voided.

If I say yes to sex, I have the right to change my mind, if I faint then my consent is voided, and a man who believes otherwise is what we would term "a rapist". Someone killing me is a bigger deal than someone fucking me, so the argument around sexual consent definitely applies to consenting to die.

Terminal pain and agitation should be medicated. People should be pretty much knocked out on end of life syringe driver medications. I rarely used to see the things people are describing. We had people on multiple types of pain relief. Yes, breakthrough pain used to happen, but it was easy to prevent and quickly treated if it did happen. I'm wondering if people are not being medicated at all now. I agree it's horrifying and no one should have to go through it. End of life people should be able to just sleep through it.

Ten years ago I ended up in A&E with gallbladder and pancreatitis pain. I was in such agony I thought I was going to have a heart attack. I was given 10mls of Oramorph and made to sit in the waiting room for hours. When I was training, gallbladder/ pancreatitis patients were given IM diamorphine and admitted to general surgery pretty quickly. It was classed as very urgent and pain relief was a priority. Now they couldn't give a shite. They'll be skimping on anaesthetics next. This obsession with restricting pain relief is a national scandal. I wonder what reason student nurses and doctors are given for being expected to do this.
It's like something Kafka would have written about.

Agree with both of you. Those against it hold all the power and are essentially gatekeeping the lives of us that want the option to opt in for the future potential to end our suffering on our terms, calmly, with choice and dignity.

I was there when he died of pancreatic cancer and he didn't want to go. He didn't want to leave his wife and daughter.

The debate is whether that can be done in such a way that is safe for the rest of society (in all the ways that many have outlined here), and whether we think this country has robust enough social, medical and palliative systems to implement it.

indeed. And I think of the many, many revelations of callous and completely care-less unethical treatment of the elderly and the vulnerable disabled we’ve heard over the years.

Esch time, it’s “Never again.” But it always happens again.

The culture shift you describe is concerning, as is the inability of our society to learn from past scandals that these scandals are inevitable and part of human nature. They’re so shocking they feel like aberrations, but they’re so regular, that they are “normal” in an awful sort of way.

I think of the sending of vulnerable ill elderly people to nursing homes in the first wave of COVID . We didn’t know a huge amount about COVID at the time, but we knew enough to know that this was pretty much a death sentence for many elderly patients.

We also know that women tend to live longer than men, and women’s life-long conditioning to be the carer means that older and disabled women might feel the pressure of “being a burden” in ways that might not even occur to most men.

@MaidOfAle - fine. That's your choice. If you don't want to risk changing your mind, then don't have an advance directive and don't have assisted dying. But why should you get a choice over how I die?

I have seen the living hell of having dementia and being in a care home. I will not do it. If that means I have to jump off a bridge or (preferably) go to Dignitas, then so be it. But I should have the choice to determine how I die if I lose capacity.

It will be for terminally ill people who simply wish to die without agonising pain.

The Canadian politicians said that too...

It will be abused. So I oppose it.

I think possibly the case of Harold Shipman at least had an effect on medical professionals not administering high levels of pain relief anymore. I too suffered through the pain of pancreatitis, my pain couldn’t be managed at all, I’m not sure anyone believes me about how bad it was and that nothing dulled it.

I was with my 90 year old grandmother until her death. She was in and out of consciousness, in pain, but I could see from her actions, that she was fighting to live. My parents are now in their 90s and both are getting relatively frail, but both are enjoying their lives. My mother has no memory and is like a child, but is the happiest I’ve ever seen her.

We are animals - our bodies are made to live.

Same here, in a nutshell.

This obsession with restricting pain relief is a national scandal. I wonder what reason student nurses and doctors are given for being expected to do this.

"But teh patient might get hooked on opioidz!!!!!!"

FFS the patient's dying, they ain't gonna need rehab, just let them have the drugs.

As for short-term pain, just let them have the drugs. It's longer-term use that's the addiction risk.

I think a wider discussion is needed on this; I recall the medication being insufficient for my mum and despite us flagging it up, noone did anything to improve things for her. We had to do our own research and then would ask the GP/nurse about it. They would adjust things but she was still suffering until she eventually got a hospice place; she passed within a day or so.

I hear you ..and read what I put earlier.
I suppose I'm just thinking, if someone really wants to die ,is it not better they can die pain free .
And this thread is really helpful because it's making me re examine what I think ,and it's definitely not clear cut .
But I definitely hear what you are saying,and I think I do agree with you

I agree 100%.

The issue is that I don't trust lawmakers to write an assisted dying law to have enough safeguards in it. I don't trust the NHS, social care providers, or families not to abuse assisted dying.

Supporting my view:

1. Canada.
2. During the COVID lockdown, DNRs were applied to disabled people without their or their families' consent.

I was pro-assisted-dying until COVID came along, then the Canadian cases strengthened that view.

This!!!

Would you like to produce evidence for that. Do you even know "every country" where it is legalised?

Do people think that death is all nice and peaceful with the ill person lying in bed, loved ones holding their hand? A deep breath, a smile and off they go? It's nothing like that!

I would love to see this happen. More people are not going to die! But people don't have to suffer, and we don't have to witness our family members screaming in pain, and deteriorating until they are just a bag of bones in a bed.

I'm not religious and I'm in favour of assisted dying. I don't support the bill that's being rushed through as it appears to be close to the Canadian model.
Everyone should have a choice and no one should be pressured.

I don't recall so many people wanting AD prior to Shipman and the development of the Liverpool Care Death By Dehydration Pathway. It's almost as if shockingly bad EOL care becoming the norm is driving the demand for AD...

Countries where AD is legal usually don't include dementia as a reason for it.

Please, please, please

Let me choose. My life --- My right to end it

Terminal pain and agitation should be medicated. People should be pretty much knocked out on end of life syringe driver medications. I rarely used to see the things people are describing. We had people on multiple types of pain relief. Yes, breakthrough pain used to happen, but it was easy to prevent and quickly treated if it did happen. I'm wondering if people are not being medicated at all now. I agree it's horrifying and no one should have to go through it. End of life people should be able to just sleep through it.

That's exactly what happened with my late DF. He had a syringe driver, and did indeed just sleep through until his death, as did a woman I recently saw in hospital. However, I'm not in the UK. Why is this not happening there?

Absolutely this. We have seen it in UK with blanket DNRs which were also interpreted as 'no treatment '. We know there were discussions to remove cancer care from NHS to save money. UK has refused use of new dementia drugs based on value for money. I don't trust that this won't end up a cost cutting exercise of the economic inactive. Focus on better healthcare, preventative care first. I say this as someone who would have strongly supported this, but having seen the actions & decisions of the last 5 years, not a chance. People deserve the best of care not feel they are a burden. If the care was better, then dying may not be so painful.