They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

What's happening in Canada???

Sorry to tell you your Nan was not fighting to live. Her body was fighting to live as a reflex. Your Nan had no control over whether she lived or died. Her body held all the cards. And I for one do want to control over what happens to me.

I think the analogy with abortion is a good one. There are lots of concerns about the implications that abortion can have on the disabled (especially those with Down Syndrome and other conditions that can be screened for) and other concerns about women feeling pressured to abort their babies but ultimately the principle remains that someone should have autonomy over their own body. Why is AD any different?

You can't say that AD can only be discussed when healthcare etc is fixed is nonsense. This will never happen.

The difference between AD and abortion is that abortion requires that a woman's body be life support for another living thing, whereas AD doesn't.

No one has the right to use someone else's body as life support. No one has the right to have someone else kill them.

Yes, it fucking well is. Your husband didn't want to die. That is his choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to make my own choice

I should definitely have the right for my body to stop being my 'existence' support body, if I don't want it to be.
You make your choices. I, and many others, should be allowed to make their own. You should NOT be the abiter of MINE

As several others have said, the problem isn't AD in principle, but how it will be implemented in practice and how it will be used to save money on healthcare and social care.

In Canada, they have socialised health care. It's no coincidence that AD has quickly become something offered to people with completely treatable conditions over there.

But
Would people want AD if their end naturally was well medicated with pain relief.
Is it the pain we are afraid of .
If that was tackled first ,so no one with long term illness died in pain ,
Maybe people would not want AD
People saying they have watched loved ones die suffering in pain ..that should not be happening,they should be well medicated to be pain free
Would people want AD for themselves and loved ones if they knew the pathway would be pain free

During COVID, over 500 disabled people in the UK were slapped with DNRs without their or their families' consent by healthcare staff who were supposed to care for them, because that's how badly disabled people are thought of in the UK.

If you look at what has happened in Canada and think that that won't happen here, you're deluded. Canada started with safeguards too...

Power corrupts. What do you think that the power to end someone will do to those who wield it?

@Daisymay6 I’m not interested in pain management for end of life care. For me, my life is over when I can no longer manage to do the things that make it worthwhile. Even if I’m not terminally ill or in pain I still want to choose how and when I die. The thought of sitting in a chair for endless hours, unable to do anything for myself, a complete lack of independence and autonomy is incomprehensible to me. I completely understand that many don’t feel that way but I don’t see why they should deny me my wishes.

That's not my problem. My problem is ... My death, My choice.
We don't ban cars because some people speed
We don't ban alcohol because many people drink too much, AND are violent to others
We don't even ban marriage because far too many people (mostly men) kill their partners.
Stop denying me the peaceful end to my life that I want.

Yes that should not of happened
Did any of those people get left to die .
Who made that decision to give them dnr

Yabu

You can tho
There are countries you can go to when that time comes
I can't see our government agreeing to AD over here

Thank you so much for your post. It certainly sounds that we’ve gone backwards after Shipman.

From what you’ve written I sense you were a wonderful and humane nurse and your patients and their families must have appreciated your care very much. I’m sad to read about your husband too, gosh you were so young too.

I’d say everyone who has watched a member of their family die a slow and painful death, wants people to be able to choose. Why should it be only the rich who have a choice? Good palliative care is not, and never will be, universally available. I live in a rural area. If I become so ill I need to be in hospital, I could be dumped in one of three small hospitals miles from home, with no public transport available for my family to visit. Only a very small number of people end their days in the only hospice in the area, where genuine palliative care is available. The church has far too much influence in this country, where the majority are now non- believers.

@Daisymay6 why on earth should I have to spend many thousands of pounds going to another country to die? If I’ve made my choice then I should be allowed to have my wish here in the country I was born in.

Congratulations, you've just demonstrated how "AD for the terminally ill in pain" will inevitably scope-creep to "AD for anyone who wants it or can be coerced into it at a low point". At which point, Mind and The Samaritans and CALM and all the other people trying to stop people from killing themselves might as well close their helplines, dissolve themselves as charities, and use their remaining funds to set up suicide booths on street corners.

How can we say to a depressive "hang on in there buddy, it gets better" when your argument "Even if I’m not terminally ill or in pain I still want to choose how and when I die" basically prevents us from interfering with that person's sovereign decision-making?

The thought of sitting in a chair for endless hours

And it doesn't occur to you that elder care could and should look better than that?

I have seen my mother dying of a brain tumour begging me to help her end it and not being able to.
I want to choose how I die- why is that so bad?

Most countries only have assisted dying / euthanasia for residents. Even Switzerland is looking at restricting to residents. I think it will happen perhaps not now but at some point in my lifetime.

We need a Dignitas type system here (but without the huge cost, and the need to do it before you are really ready as you have to be well enough to get to the clinic).
Lots of assessments, checking for no coercion etc. And most of all, people actively seeking it...
It sounds different to what is coming out about MAID...

Some people know how they will check out. Not everyone has some Hollywood death where they die with a smile on their face with their family around them, with panpipe music, and a robin landing on the windowsill after they take their last breath. Some are literally writhing in pain, vomiting up faeces, bleeding from everywhere... and that is for days, even weeks before death takes them.

If someone wants to avoid that, then who are we to stop them. The alternative is they suffer greatly, or go it alone and leave mess/trauma behind.

@MaidOfAle What on earth are you talking about? I’m not at a low point, I’m more than happy with my life how it is. I simply have no desire to go on living if I get to a point where I can’t do the things that make it worthwhile. That is purely a personal choice, if others are happy ending their days in care homes then good luck to them. I have no desire to push my wishes on them, I would just like the courtesy to be returned.

If you think that the Govt penny-pinching on care isn't your problem, you are deluded. It absolutely is. That veteran, offered AD when she asked for a ramp? That's what Govt penny-pinching looks like. Disabled people asking for AD because their disability benefits aren't enough to live on? That's what Govt penny-pinching looks like. Being poor isn't an exclusive club, anyone can join it at any time through losing a job. Likewise, anyone can become disabled at any time.

What I've noticed on this thread is that the pro-AD people are very much "me, what I want" and the anti-AD people are saying "hey, don't disabled people matter?" and "what safeguards will there be"...

I don't know ,I haven't got the answers
I'm just thinking things through on this thread and taking on board what everyone says .
I don't see how it can be made safe ,so no one is coerced in to doing something they don't want to
And what is your suggestion for
how can the vulnerable members of society can be kept safe from being pushed in to AD to relieve the NHS or save inheritance rather than spend on care homes for the next generation.im interested in how those who are for AD will ensure the most vulnerable are protected

I don't know why you are talking about 'rights' as though they is some universal acceptance of unalienable rights. Some people and countries very much do believe that a fetus has the right to use the mother's body as life support. Others believe that someone does has the right to choose to have someone assist in their death.

It all boils down to 'my body, my choice'. If you truly believe in this mantra then you have to support AD even with all it's imperfections and pitfalls because ultimately the right to choose is vital. The minute we start to question this is the minute you open the door to others making decisions on your behalf and restricting your ability to choose for yourself.