They don't want us to have a choice over death do they?

[Hunnymonster1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2lyl8jrvlo.amp

This is so bloody annoying why are we so backward compared to other countries? Other countries have this sorted like america.In some states, belgium, holland, Switzerland.
They are not gonna allow this to happen are they? Which means the rich will go and pay dignitas and the poor will suffer. I am starting to get so annoyed by the mps of this country
Am I being unreasonable into thinking that they are backwards and should have given maybe the British public a referendum on a subject matter so important to individual people. If not a ref why is our country so backwards

Discussed this at work today. On a practical level it’ll be down to integrated care systems (ICS) to come up with assisted dying pathways to implement it. Can’t say I’m looking forward to that working group

Suicide isn't illegal and hasn't been since 1961.

It's hugely emotive and upsetting to think about but we have to be able to have conversations about the wishes of those people who are dying, often in agonising pain that no amount of medication will relieve. If those people wish to reclaim their dignity and their agency over their own bodies and make their own decision about the way they will pass away, there should be support for assisted dying for people who are facing a horrific death and extreme suffering. It is not "murder" to relieve intractable suffering where there is no prospect of any meaningful recovery or where the individual has lost any quality of life. They might be existing by lying in a bed waiting to die but they are not living. Does anyone really truly want to end up like that....surely it should be our choice as to when and how we pass away in peace and with dignity, and not have that choice denied to us. Are we not entitled to the same peaceful and dignified end that we give to our beloved companion animals. I want that choice.

Watching a loved one suffering at the end is one type of hell, it’s quite another when no medical intervention will help when death is coming.

Yep it IS horrible.
But this law isn’t about the people aroubd watching and/or caring. It’s about those who are dying. What would they chose?

Id love to see if there has been any studies done on that.
Because even when people are faced with terminal diagnosis, so many still chose horrible treatments just in the hope to get a few more weeks. Despite the side effects etc….
So would they TRULY want that?
And if they don’t, are we actually ready to fund appropriately hospice care? End of life care? For those who do not want AD but will still face death and the lain etc….
Why is that not talked about in parallel to AD?

Beautifully put.

I don't think there should be a vote until someone had drawn up a proper, and risk assessed plan as to how it would work and who would be eligible and how. It's bonkers that they would vote on something when no one knows fully how it would work in practice (thinking of brexit)

I was involved in palliative care for almost 30 years. I nursed my own dh through cancer until his death when I was 26. I've loved, breathed, eaten absolutely slept death my whole life. The thing that changed was that, following Shipman, the doses of palliative care drugs were dramatically decreased. Piddling doses of morphine for cancer patients. Inadequate doses of drugs for terminal agitation. Doses restricted in case they led to the patient's death through respiratory depression.

The second thing. Doctors not wanting to be held responsible for anyone's death. Even a 90 odd year old. All the stops pulled out to force keep them alive. Peg tubes, antibiotics, hospital admissions....the lot. I'm religious, but I believe that God does have a way of stopping people's suffering. Pneumonia used to be known as The Old Man's Friend. We now vaccinate against it and other chest infections are treated with repeated doses of antibiotics. Not wanting to eat and drink are a natural way of the body winding down. We now treat with subcut or IV fluids, dietary replacement fluids given via tube into the stomach or supplement drinks thickened with substances for those who struggle to swallow ordinary fluids lest they inhale them. There are ways of postponing or preventing death, sometimes for months, even years. Patient is given no choice. The doctor, anxious to avoid any accusations, ensures they don't know they can refuse these interventions. Add to this a public who don't encounter death and who will do anything to avoid those feelings of grief means that people no longer die a natural death with good palliative care.

I quit nursing after the particularly harrowing death of a MS patient which was totally mismanaged and over which I had no power over thanks to a cowardly and avoidant GP and a wrongly promoted deputy manager who hadn't a clue about palliative care and who regarded every death as a disaster. I have an advance directive in place.

I can understand why people want assisted dying. I don't begrudge people a comfortable and pain free death. I'm fully aware that my religious views shouldn't impact upon others. I was a humane nurse and I always strived hard to treat pain and other terminal symptoms. I feel bad that we're at where we're at. I don't want to see the disabled or depressed pressurised to die either.

As Canada expands its euthanasia regime, vulnerable people like the homeless, obese and grieving are increasingly offered assisted suicide, countering claims that “safeguards” ensure the protocol remains limited in its scope.

Given how inept and odious the so called elite are in this country, would you truly believe and trust they would carry out someone’s wishes morally? I’m in favour of choosing to end your life at your choosing and with dignity. I’m really bothered about this being used for other reasons to suit higher powers that be than the individuals and families involved. It would be abused no end unless strict safeguarding laws were brought in but even then, they could wiggle out of it easily enough if money was to talk. Look at how the elderly were treated during Covid. The trust isn’t there for me I’m afraid but I’m not against this.

I think it’s abhorrent to be ok with people suffering agonising deaths and not want at least some to be given the choice because a percentage of people are against it, for not particularly good reasons from what I’ve seen.

From what I have read about it, it is not a painless death. It is extremely painful. They use the same drugs as they use in America when people are on death row

Some people are greedy fuckers despite their parents raising them well. You are victim-blaming.

Thansk for confirming that my experience and losses don't matter. Only people who agree with you can have an opinion and sympathy over their loss. Got it.

I know former doctors with health directives saying they don’t consent to antibiotics if they develop severe dementia or other life limiting illness which I thought was interesting.

I always thought it was barmy that my 90 plus relative with dementia was getting jabs for everything. I wanted to scream ‘just let her get pneumonia and be done’. I would have been much quicker than the death she did have.

People tend to want ' everything' for their very elderly relatives these days, often opposing DNR decisions. These decisions are part of the recognition that as we get to 85/90 years especially the ageing process means resuscitation is futile and ITU etc just not appropriate.

That is not what I said AT ALL, please don’t use a cheap shot like that, all loses matter, that’s not my argument against you and you know it.

I'm sorry for your loss, your lived experience does matter and I am sorry for what you have suffered

You have been really sympathetic and understanding and lovely to the person who agrees with you.
Yet despite my experience, my views are abhorrent. My opinion isn't worth anything to you, despite being in the exact situation that you're talking about?

I had to provide intimate care for my dad, he asked me to kill him, he started hallucinating, he was in so much pain and slowly lost the ability to do anything at all.
My mum died absolutely petrified and the drugs made her say really out of character things.
It was traumatising for me. It would have been easier for everyone had they reached a certain point and were helped on their way. But I STILL don't believe in assisted dying. I don't think it's moral, I don't think we should be able to choose when or how to die and despite what you may think, my experience and my opinion matters.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

@ComingBackHome Yep it IS horrible.
But this law isn’t about the people aroubd watching and/or caring. It’s about those who are dying. What would they chose?

I have been with someone who was slowly dying in extreme pain, at first she would cry out "help me" and then later on a few months closer to the end, she would wimper "kill me just kill me" I imagine most people in extreme pain with no hope just want to be released from that kind of hell.

Another relative of mine who was elderly had a series of strokes and was paralyzed down her right side, she couldn't do anything for herself, couldn't lift her head or speak apart from the odd cry out when she was being moved when she was being washed and dressed, she couldn't even open her eyes. Who knows what she could feel ? As her family we rallied round & organised visits every day and night even though it was a very long round trip, we made sure she had someone there for every visiting time for over 3 years. She never ever responded to any of us but we just kept hoping she could hear us talking, to her telling her all the family news, while holding her hand and hope she wasn't in pain. We'll never know the answer to that, but I don't ever want to be in the same position.

I’m against assisted dying primarily because I have a son with Autism and I feel that in time the rules around who can access this will loosen. I’d worry that he would be groomed into it without me around to look after him in summary. Countries that have made it legal have loosened the rules to allow mental health sufferers and suicidal people. I also feel some elderly people will be pressured into it by greedy families wanting their inheritance. Money brings out the worst in people.

I do get that people who have watched relatives die painful deaths and people with current terminal diagnosis want to have the right to die. I feel what’s being recommended is reasonable but I don’t believe it would stop there - it’s a slippery slope

I also don’t know who would carry it out. Surely deliberately ending someone’s life is against the purpose of a doctor. Would physicians be pressured by budget considerations to use it as a cost saving exercise

We all know all too well the evil that men do. Often fuelled by money. It’s a Pandora’s box that we’d be opening

Just to add that this was during covid lockdown and if I hadn't made the decision to uproot my kids and my life to moved 100+ miles to care for them they would have died alone. I was on my own with each of them when they passed and I don't think I could survive anything else like that.
My opinion isn't based on 'some people will abuse the system' or what's happening in Canada or wanting people to suffer. Its based on my own horrific experiences and thoughts about it.

This ^

I don't want to suffer the same nonexistent quality of life my parents endured, incapacitated on a dementia unit. But if I get to that stage myself, my mental capacity to make any relevant decisions is already gone.

I think having an advance directive in place is the way forward - there are free online ways of formally recording this, such as Compassion in Dying.

I've not read the entire thread but to me, this is akin to abortion. If YOU don't want assisted dying, then don't have it, but don't you dare tell me what I can and can't do.

I have watched my father die of terminal cancer in screaming agony. At least it was mercifully quick (a few months) compared to watching my mother die of dementia over a decade.

I want to live in a country where I can make an advanced decision - now - that at the point I get dementia (if I do), then as soon as I cannot live alone/recognise my loved ones/lose continence/[insert other criteria], that I'm given life-ending drugs. I can make that decision decades ahead of time. There is no-one to coerce me. I shall talk to my GP on an on-going basis, make the decision collaboratively and have it recorded.

As it is, if I get a dementia diagnosis, I shall have to get on the first plane to Dignitas and end my life whilst I still have the capacity to do so, nevermind that I could still have a good few years left in me.

I will NEVER go into a care home. Absolutely no way. I will not go through what my mother went through. It was horrific and I will never get over the indignity she suffered, being without speech, without cognition, unable to walk, doubly incontinent and spoon fed mush.

So if you don't want to choose assisted dying, then don't. But don't argue bullshit about palliative care being improved. I do not want a decade of palliative care as I lose my mind, thank you. I want to exit stage left, quickly and with dignity.

That’s why we should ALL have thought about a living will.
What would you be happy to see happening if you had let’s say a heart attack, a stroke, were in ICU or in a coma.
How far do you want doctors to go to ‘save you’ at all cost.

I have enough on my plate with my own health issues atm. So I’m working on that and a DNR. Will probably add other stuff as I go into it more.

We should all have a living will. Before and above AD imo.