Sad our church turned its back on dd

[TeenLifeMum]

Dd has been to church all her life. At one point we moved to a different church that suited us more but we made lovely friends etc and dd was attending youth group until she was 15. Suddenly she was less keen but focusing on GCSEs so we didn’t push it. With clubs etc for the other dc, regular attendance dropped a bit but we were fairly relaxed.

I believe in god but have always had issues with “the church”, but put that aside to be with people of faith.

I recently learned why dd stopped going to youth - they did a full session on how they should pray for gay people in the hope of healing them. How they are so angry about people loving each other is beyond me.

dd is gay. Her girlfriend is loving, kind, polite, and caring. I want all my dc to have loving healthy relationships so have no issue and naively thought others wouldn’t care. Turns out they do. Two of her closest friends stepped away due to her being gay (parents we’d met through church) and now she understandably doesn’t want to go to church, and neither do I.

I’m angry. I hope they’re really proud of themselves from their high horses. On the off chance they’re on here - no, you’re not good Christians.

Thanks for humouring my rant.

Doesn't it? The Christian homophobia displayed in some Christian groups and individuals, including the ones who fought to prevent marriage equality in the UK and were successful up until 2020, suggest these Christian values you claim the country is built on aren't as u iversally great as you seem to think.

Devout Christians put witnesses to crimes "to the test", ie checked that their evidence was the same under torture; this is among the Christian values on which the country is built. I would be very careful about trying to claim merit for anyone's Christianity but my own, if I were a Christian; and of course, if I were a Christian, then claiming merit for my own brand of Christianity would be to fall into the sin of hubris, which as we know was the cause of Satan's downfall – according to Milton, who was a very great poet and why should he not be taken as an authority just as much as the poetic Paul?

@Bogstandards how is it semantics to point out something that is factual?

Every functional vaguely civilised country has very similar laws on not criminal and civil justice. What laws do you think the UK has that are uniquely Christian in origin and that other civilised/democratic countries with predominantly non Christian faith communities or foundations do not have?

how is it semantics to point out something that is factual?

It isn't, but claiming someone else's point is "semantics" is often seen as a good way to back out of an untenable position in argument.

@OneQuickHam I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

I meant your repeated use of the word arrogant @pointythings it is beginning to lose all meaning.
I'm not a politician and have little interest in secular law.

Disagree that Christian groups tried to stop marriage equality being legalised? Because that's a fact.

And you've thrown around the word arrogant too.

The second half of your sentence was: "...suggest these Christian values you claim the country is built on aren't as u iversally great as you seem to think".

While some Christian groups tried to stop marriage equality, others supported it.
It is wrong to imply that all Christians, and their values, are homophobic.

Is it not arrogant to presume that your way of doing things is the only correct way? What other word would yoj use for someone who cannot accept the possibility that they may be wrong?

This is absolutely true. But those Christians who supported marriage equality are those who other Chrwould describe as not real Christians.

Hence my use of "some".

Including bogstandards.

You quoted only the first part of your sentence when you queried why Bogstandards disagreed with you.
It's more likely that Bogstandards disagreed with the second part that you omitted.

The second part follows from the first.

As I've already said previously, many highly respected Church of England Christians, including members of the clergy, are gay and openly live with their partners.

Of course there have always been gay members of the clergy; they just had to keep quiet about it and pretend they were not married because they were celibate rather than because they were gay. (Ever so Paulian, that.) In other words they were obliged to live a lie every day of their lives, which I feel fairly sure Christ wouldn't have thought was all that wonderful, for him, for them, or for anyone else.

They are now able to be open about it, which is a small step out of the dark ages to which many purported christians want to return the church. Until quite recently, though, a candidate for the clergy being gay and the victim of a poisonous anonymous letter about it was sufficient reason for a bishop to refuse the ordain him at two days' notice: people knew he was gay and the bishop had been told, so ordaining him was out of the question. (In the case of the man I am thinking of, this was the Church's loss rather than his.)

When did I say I can't accept I might be wrong?

Arrogant - unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people.

Jesus' claim to be 'THE way, THE truth and THE life' is exclusive! If it is indeed true, as I believe, then it naturally follows that all other beliefs are false. Does that mean I look down on anyone for having a different opinion? That's a solid no.

Being a Christian involves humbly acknowledging our failings before God, sometimes on a daily basis. I am not an arrogant person by any means.

That was one time and I don't think it was an unfair accusation given the post.

I don't disagree some (not only Christians) tried to ban the legalisation of same sex marriage but I do disagree about the possible motives behind it.

Jesus' claim to be 'THE way, THE truth and THE life' is exclusive! If it is indeed true, as I believe, then it naturally follows that all other beliefs are false. Does that mean I look down on anyone for having a different opinion? That's a solid no.

But it is only a belief. It might be wrong. There might be many ways, truths and lives. Personally I think this is more plausible than there being one single correct way to live a good life and all others being false. That's what I'm getting at - the believer's inability to accept that the way they have chosen might not be the only correct way.

Everything else flows from that, including the people who knock at my door and accost me on the street, and more importantly the people who seek to use their beliefs to make law which then impinges on the freedoms of others. It's not just Christianity that does this, by the way.

What were the motivations behind an attempt to ban same-sex marriage?

Not necessarily. I wouldn't base the legitimacy of someone's belief system on any one particular factor. Do I think progressive Christianity is a false church along with JW, LDS and others? Yes - but that doesn't mean I believe everyone within that church is inevitably unsaved.

I'm not sure you've read my other posts - I don't wish to repeat it all and I obviously can't speak for everyone. Sure, some people will be sadly motivated by hate. For those this doesn't apply to (quite often the opposite) it is simply a desire to stay true to God. Apostasy is not something to be taken lightly. We can't overthrow what God has ordained because of personal feelings. To do that is to replace His authority with our own.

You're entitled to your belief... there...are you happy now? 😉

I'm very happy - I hope you are too.

Their motive is homophobia. They tried to stop people having rights and that's disgusting.

Great @pointythings Yes I'm grand, thank you.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree here @OneQuickHam.