Sad our church turned its back on dd

[TeenLifeMum]

Dd has been to church all her life. At one point we moved to a different church that suited us more but we made lovely friends etc and dd was attending youth group until she was 15. Suddenly she was less keen but focusing on GCSEs so we didn’t push it. With clubs etc for the other dc, regular attendance dropped a bit but we were fairly relaxed.

I believe in god but have always had issues with “the church”, but put that aside to be with people of faith.

I recently learned why dd stopped going to youth - they did a full session on how they should pray for gay people in the hope of healing them. How they are so angry about people loving each other is beyond me.

dd is gay. Her girlfriend is loving, kind, polite, and caring. I want all my dc to have loving healthy relationships so have no issue and naively thought others wouldn’t care. Turns out they do. Two of her closest friends stepped away due to her being gay (parents we’d met through church) and now she understandably doesn’t want to go to church, and neither do I.

I’m angry. I hope they’re really proud of themselves from their high horses. On the off chance they’re on here - no, you’re not good Christians.

Thanks for humouring my rant.

The quotes above, plus what Jesus said about marriage, yes - the message is that those who can stay single, should.

But then that should apply equally to people who are gay, bi or straight - it should not be the case that gay people only have singledom as the option.

It's also weird - if the ideal is to stay single, is the aim that humanity should die out? I know there's a Christian group who operate that way.

I think the umpteen "Christian" groups over the centuries which have felt sex was sinful and they should not indulge in it at all have tended to cease to exist within two generations, while the rest of humanity went on without them.

Thank you for your honesty JayJay and I am genuinely sorry if you've felt upset. I'll keep the answer to your question brief. The verse says here 'situation' or 'condition'. This was a letter, written by Saint Paul, answering the new Christians in Greece, who were questioning whether they should leave their spouses to follow Christ. We know Paul was not referring to sexuality from his earlier writings to the Church in Corinth (1 Corinthians 6:9 onwards).

Not everyone is called to marry. As the traditional vows go:

...we are gathered here in the sight of God and in the face of this congregation, to join together this man and this woman in holy matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God himself, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church; which holy estate Christ adorned and beautified with his presence, and first miracle that he wrought, in Cana of Galilee, and is commended in Holy Writ to be honourable among all men; and therefore is not by any to be enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly; but reverently, discreetly, soberly, and in the fear of God, duly considering the causes for which matrimony was ordained.
First, it was ordained for the increase of mankind according to the will of God, and that children might be brought up in the fear and nurture of the Lord, and to the praise of his holy name.
Secondly, it was ordained in order that the natural instincts and affections, implanted by God, should be hallowed and directed aright; that those who are called of God to this holy estate, should continue therein in pureness of living.
Thirdly, it was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity.

Well, that paragraph about natural instincts seems to me to include gay people then in terms of people who can get married. Unless of course you're operating on the principle that same sex attraction is a choice (whereas opposite sex attraction for some bizarre reason is not).

So once again the Bible falls down and is either illogical, contradictory or unreasonable. And since the Bible is the word of God, God is therefore also either illogical, contradictory or unreasonable. Biblical literalists can't have their cake and eat it.

That's not the Word of God @pointythings, that was based on Scripture but written by the Church.

Well, then we're back to God being a sociopath...

Not to mention "which church": there are rather more than 47 varieties.

I don't think this is particularly constructive @pointythings.

It's not, it just goes round in circles. I just really wish that religions could keep their noses out of government. There are so many countries where gay couples can't get married 'Because God', and there are so many more where they are persecuted to the point of death 'Because God'. If only religions kept themselves to themselves and stopped telling people theirs was the only right way, then people could just live and let live.

And the same goes for all beliefs, not just religious ones. There's a core set of rules that make sense no matter what faith or lack thereof people have - they're the rules that ensure the survival of the species. We don't need more than that. So don't steal, don't rape, don't murder, don't scam people out of their savings - stuff we can all agree nobody should do. And stop telling two people of the same sex who love each other and are capable of consent that what they're doing is wrong, that it should be illegal, that they should be in jail for it and certainly that they are not allowed to partake of the joys of human relationship.

When it comes through the church door then it becomes our business @pointythings.

In no way do I condone violence or oppression towards same sex attracted people.

I'm glad we can agree there are moral laws which are universally recognised.

Forgot to add - when the words 'natural instinct' or 'natural relations' are used it's just an old fashioned way of saying heterosexual attraction/behaviour. Anything outside of that would have been described as 'unnatural', even if it feels natural on an individual level. I suppose that would be called heteronormative today.

Given that homosexuality occurs in some 1500 species outside of the human, maybe it's time for religious organisations to get over their insistence on heteronormativity.

Bogstandards
When it comes through the church door then it becomes our business.

And when it doesn't, why then it isn't.

Not wanting/allowing same sex relationships, marriage, or families is oppression.

Animals also eat their young and breed with close relatives. You only have to look at how a cat tortures plays with a mouse to see they don't possess a conscience. I don't think it's wise to emulate their behaviour. Humans were set apart from the animals, we are the only ones made in God's image. This is coming from an animal lover btw.

Nobody is preventing you from having a relationship, producing children or marrying in a civil ceremony.

I was coming at it from a survival of the species point of view - homosexual animals have a function in terms of adopting young whose parents cannot care for them or have rejected them. This is frequently seen in nature and it rather suggests that homosexual animal pairings are a good thing which supports life. It's only humans who feel differently about it, suggesting our conscience may not be particularly great or infallible. Again, arrogant to think we cannot learn things from species other than ourselves.

I see @pointythings, that's very interesting.

I have a legal marriage, not a civil ceremony. As per British law. But according to the beliefs of people like you, that shouldn't be so. Many, many hetero couples have non-religious wedding ceremonies. Are they any less married than you or I?

And whilst nobody is preventing it (here in the UK), that doesn't mean that people of your ilk are okay with it.
If I believed in a god I would thank him for making me British, so that I am able to lead the happy family life everyone deserves. Because in lots and lots of countries religious people absolutely ARE preventing it. And in many cases people are sentenced to death for being homosexual.
So whilst you may try to comfort yourself by saying you have no ill-will towards the people of my community, your beliefs are just the start of much more barbaric practices around the globe.
You're either homophobic or you're not. You either accept people from the LGBTQ community or you don't. The only difference between you and the countries where gay people are thrown off buildings is the collective "norm" of the society around you.

@JayJayEl

I have a legal marriage, according to the beliefs of people like you, that shouldn't be so.

You’re putting words in my mouth, I never said that. There’s no difference legally, but it’s not the same as holy matrimony in my opinion - I would include hetero couples in that. Gay Christians are able to marry in certain denominations and pray for God’s blessing in others if they wish.
I'm not sure why would anyone (gay or not) who doesn’t believe in God and considers both types of marriage equal, would want a religious ceremony anyway.

people of your ilk

Do you mean Christians? Because that sounds a lot like prejudice to me...respect is a two way street.

If I believed in a god I would thank him for making me British, so that I am able to lead the happy family life everyone deserves.
…the collective "norm" of the society around you.

Please do thank God! Our society has been built up on Christian values, principles and philanthropy which have shaped modern education, healthcare, criminal justice, literature and art to name but a few.

in many cases people are sentenced to death for being homosexual.
…countries where gay people are thrown off buildings

Some sick individuals will use any excuse to target and attack the vulnerable. Many atrocities throughout the course of history have been committed in the name of religion:
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

So whilst you may try to comfort yourself by saying you have no ill-will towards the people of my community...

You can keep dismissing it because it doesn’t fit your narrative, but it’s true - there is no 'ill will' on my part.

You're either homophobic or you're not. You either accept people from the LGBTQ community or you don't.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. You are over simplifying - it isn’t all or nothing. Plenty of women on MN have issues with the trans rights movement but not with same sex marriage, for example.
Love and acceptance is not the same as encouragement or celebration. You can’t demand that conservative Christians, Orthodox Jews or Muslims openly defy their God and then belittle, insult and shun them (or worse) when they refuse. That is grossly unfair. That is discrimination.

Please do thank God! Our society has been built up on Christian values, principles and philanthropy which have shaped modern education, healthcare, criminal justice, literature and art to name but a few.

There has only been marriage equality for four years. And that's despite the best efforts of many Christian groups, not because of it.

The 'Christian ' values claimed for our society are almost identical to societal values across the world where there is a functioning society. They are values that support survival of the species and are much the same in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and paganism. They are the same in secular society. Christianity claiming credit for them is just more arrogance.

That doesn't invalidate what I said @OneQuickHam.

You know @pointythings I really think I might be experiencing semantic satiation at this point...