Sad our church turned its back on dd

[TeenLifeMum]

Dd has been to church all her life. At one point we moved to a different church that suited us more but we made lovely friends etc and dd was attending youth group until she was 15. Suddenly she was less keen but focusing on GCSEs so we didn’t push it. With clubs etc for the other dc, regular attendance dropped a bit but we were fairly relaxed.

I believe in god but have always had issues with “the church”, but put that aside to be with people of faith.

I recently learned why dd stopped going to youth - they did a full session on how they should pray for gay people in the hope of healing them. How they are so angry about people loving each other is beyond me.

dd is gay. Her girlfriend is loving, kind, polite, and caring. I want all my dc to have loving healthy relationships so have no issue and naively thought others wouldn’t care. Turns out they do. Two of her closest friends stepped away due to her being gay (parents we’d met through church) and now she understandably doesn’t want to go to church, and neither do I.

I’m angry. I hope they’re really proud of themselves from their high horses. On the off chance they’re on here - no, you’re not good Christians.

Thanks for humouring my rant.

You have forgotten that Adam willingly relinquished his relationship with God, by choosing to believe an enemy’s lie rather than trust and obey God? His act of betrayal caused a catastrophe for all his descendants and for all of creation over which he had been made vice regent.

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2: 16-17

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.”
Genesis 3:4-6

Thank you but how can being born gay be free will? Are you supposed to think you are sinful and pray the gay away? Or be celibate? I'm not gay btw.
Once upon a time I studied and knew the main tenets of Christianity pretty thoroughly (14 years in church schools, 10 in the church choir/youth clubs/house groups). Having flashbacks to 40 odd years ago😂.

In latter years I wonder increasingly about a guide for living based on a variety of ancient writings, written predominantly by men, for men. I have a particular antipathy to Paul.

Thank you - do you actually believe this, can I ask?
I'm very familiar with the creation myth but I had forgotten the fall of mankind bit. Whoever wrote this to explain how people came about didn't like women much, although the KJV is beautifully written.

However you explain it, it doesn't really address why some people, seemingly randomly, are born gay because of some sin they had nothing to do with. Why should they bear the weight of the sin of mankind (outdated term, I know)?

My friend the RE teacher and vicar's wife enthused over a book called, I think, A Bigger table'. If I understand correctly, if all the types of Christians (gay, straight, whatever) don't fit around your table, you need a bigger table.

Thoughts welcomed.

@Sharptonguedwoman I'm applying the "free will is dangerous" argument to the people who think being gay is sinful and berate those who are in a loving relationship with another adult, not to those who are gay or lesbian.
For me, it also explains how the CofE can be completely blind to men who get off on wearing women's dresses (ecclesiastical robes, like academic gowns, are traditional male clothing, flowery frocks are not) and fawn over them, but refuse to marry two women unless one of them has a piece of paper saying she's a man.
I'm sorry to harp on this but it is absolutely crucial in this argument: even the liberal wing of the CofE is homophobic and misogynist, and this is a clear demonstration of it. If it weren't, it would have allowed same sex marriage long ago AND would have realised the danger to women and children in telling them that men can be women.

And it's what happens when the free will of overbearing men stamps on the rights of women and people who are same sex attracted.
As in many other areas of the world, we need to be "as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves" - it's no good thinking everything in the church is lovely because we are all Christians, but we can at least express compassion to those who are genuinely struggling and want help.

AgileGreenSeal
You have forgotten that Adam willingly relinquished his relationship with God, by choosing to believe an enemy’s lie rather than trust and obey God? His act of betrayal caused a catastrophe for all his descendants and for all of creation over which he had been made vice regent.

This leaves the problem of the assertion that God is omnipresent, omniscient and omni benevolent. If he was there why did he allow the devil ("an enemy" pah: mealy-mouthed) to have his own way?? If he knew what was going on why did he not put a stop to it? And if he is such a benevolent being, why did he cause the untold and horrible suffering humanity has been being put through all the time ever since?

(I do not see the relevance of quotation from Genesis to this problem. As I said quite early in this thread, if you look in the Bible you can find justification for literally anything you want. People do. That's why they feel able to persecute gays in the name of love.)

I do believe the scripture, yes.

But even if you take this as merely metaphor I don’t think most people would disagree that all of humanity is in some way flawed, imperfect.
All of us. Every human being ever born.
Except for One, One perfect Man, whose ancestry includes Adam on His mother’s side but significantly not on His Father’s.

“Why should they bear the weight of the sin of mankind (outdated term, I know)?”

They don’t.
They bear their own sin as each one of us does. Unless we enter into a relationship with the perfect Man, the second Adam, who didn’t fail the test in another garden but submitted Himself to the will of God and the became the One who actually bore “the weight of the sin of mankind.”

As was prophesied by Isaiah 700 years before His birth

“But He was wounded for our transgressions,
bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53: 5-6

The table is big, and all are invited to dine.
The door into the banquet is narrow.

As the Lord Jesus said Himself
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:6

AgileGreenSeal
As the Lord Jesus said Himself
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:6

Or at least is reported as having said, by someone who may or may not have actually met him; John's gospel seems to have been written around seventy years after the birth of Christ. So either the writer was quite of an age when he wrote it, or he wrote it going on reports from other people.

That text underlines the fact that this is very hard lines on all the people who lived and died before 30 (or 33) AD. They cannot come to the Father without knowledge of Christ's life, death and teaching that was never available to them. Indeed, the dates for lack-of-knowledge are later for anyone born in Australia, China, India, Mongolia, the Scandinavian peninsula, the Americas...

Any deity who thinks I'm a sheep is going to get a one finger salute from me. Respect has to go two ways, even if one of you purports to be a God.

“That text underlines the fact that this is very hard lines on all the people who lived and died before 30 (or 33) AD.”

No. You’re mistaken.
Read Isaiah 53 again. Remember it was written 700 years before Jesus was born.

“the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus is the once for all necessary mechanism by which God provided and provides now salvation for all His people, all the way back to Adam.

Throughout scripture there is a consistent theme of salvation by grace (undeserved favour) through faith (not by human effort).

The Old Testament believers were saved by grace through faith in God, even though they had little or no understanding of the mechanism that God would use to accomplish it. There are glimpses here and there throughout the prophetic scriptures (like Isaiah 53), but the actual event itself still took most people by surprise.

Those who never heard the gospel are going to be judged by Jesus Christ just like everyone else. He will judge them justly.

Those who have heard the gospel yet have rejected it are totally without excuse. He will judge them justly too.

Just like I’m judging the amount of mental gymnastics and wilful bending of time and space this post has involved…

I'm not religious at all. But like surely a tenet in main stream Christianity is that being gay in a sin. But Christians are taught to hate the sin but to love the sinner.

God is outside time.

What a comforting thought. Doesn't help with his general reported behaviour, though: someone vengeful and thoroughly unpleasant, whom I'd cross the road to avoid if he were someone living on my street. You see, if you are going to appeal to the Old Testament for your witness, that's a collection of books from which God really does not come out well at all.

You would like all evil to be avenged?

All who have ever thought, said or done something wrong to be held to account?

All who have failed to think, say or do the right thing to be held to account?

Don’t worry
that day is coming

Why did God allow Adam a free choice?
Because anything other than a free choice would make Adam less than human, an automaton.

How could there have been a free choice to choose an enemy’s lie if no enemy existed?

this day is also coming, for those who are saved
“And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Revelation 21: 3-4

You are judging God.
You have decided you want nothing to do with Him.

He will give you what you want.

Isiah 53 writes about someone who is punished by god, not by man. It also describes him as god's servant. To describe Jesus as god's servant goes against the commonly held views regarding the trinity, doesn't it?

Not at all.
look at this passage from Philippians where the status of Christ as God and Servant is unambiguous.

“In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Philippians 2 : 5-11

Isaiah 53 states
“He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”
and
“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away…”

The prophetic picture of the suffering Servant indicates a death at the hands of men in fulfilment of the will of God.

All who have failed to think, say or do the right thing to be held to account?

No, the idea of thought crime is an abomination. Read 1984.

AgileGreenSeal
You would like all evil to be avenged?
All who have ever thought, said or done something wrong to be held to account?
All who have failed to think, say or do the right thing to be held to account?

Good grief, no. Absolutely not! And if that is the behaviour of a loving deity, well, all I can say is that deity is a great deal lesser than yeraverage human father, and should be ashamed of himself.

Or maybe he has simply never come across the concept of forgiveness. What a bleak notion.

AgileGreenSeal
You are judging God.
You have decided you want nothing to do with Him.
He will give you what you want.

Well, no, I am judging you. Your God is a nasty bit of work; have you considered taking a look at the one espoused by the Society of Friends? (It's that thing about beams and motes again, isn't it.)

I certainly want nothing to do with the odious individual you have created (possibly in your own image, but I do hope not for the sake of those around you). Fortunately there are Christian alternatives to the vengeful and horrific creature you depict.

I agree with you about the faith part, although that's not what was called into question earlier.

How could there have been a free choice to choose an enemy’s lie if no enemy existed?

I would add @AgileGreenSeal that the enemy exists because God gave even the angels free will.

Good point @Bogstandards 👍

Wow, this thread!
There's one thing worse than a homophobe, and that's a well-read homophobe. Particularly one that is narcissistic enough to believe that THEY (and those like them) are somehow the only people who's interpretation of the bible is correct. That somehow, out of all the interpretations and translations that exist, they just happened to have stumbled upon the only true one. Why do you think that is, @AgileGreenSeal @Bogstandards and the like?

I don't know, but I gather from the news that keeping the Sabbath day IS a really important commandment, according to some Christians who know that is what the Bible requires of them. Even if it has been rather pooh-poohed and ignored upthread by those who also know their bible so very well.

There is a petition to stop Tesco from opening its shop in Stornaway on Sundays. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly695ke43lo

So is the Wee Free not right? Good Calvinists tend to be absolutely certain their interpretation of the Bible is the right one. (In general they think they are right and everyone else is wrong when it comes to biblical interpretation. It seems to go with being fervent about Christianity. I wish I'd thought to ask Rowan Williams about this when I was talking with him on Friday... He's always struck me as a reasonable man, for an Archbishop.)

Attitudes to Sabbath observance and consuming (or not consuming ) specific foods or drink is well covered in New Testament scripture.

When this subject arises I prefer to practice Romans 14:22
“So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.”