Sad our church turned its back on dd

[TeenLifeMum]

Dd has been to church all her life. At one point we moved to a different church that suited us more but we made lovely friends etc and dd was attending youth group until she was 15. Suddenly she was less keen but focusing on GCSEs so we didn’t push it. With clubs etc for the other dc, regular attendance dropped a bit but we were fairly relaxed.

I believe in god but have always had issues with “the church”, but put that aside to be with people of faith.

I recently learned why dd stopped going to youth - they did a full session on how they should pray for gay people in the hope of healing them. How they are so angry about people loving each other is beyond me.

dd is gay. Her girlfriend is loving, kind, polite, and caring. I want all my dc to have loving healthy relationships so have no issue and naively thought others wouldn’t care. Turns out they do. Two of her closest friends stepped away due to her being gay (parents we’d met through church) and now she understandably doesn’t want to go to church, and neither do I.

I’m angry. I hope they’re really proud of themselves from their high horses. On the off chance they’re on here - no, you’re not good Christians.

Thanks for humouring my rant.

Sure Jan. 😅

Homophobia, calling people arrogant, the whole no true Christian thing. So civil.

I haven't expressed homophobia.
They were arrogant.
It's true - some Christians are not really Christians.

Bogstandards
It's true - some Christians are not really Christians.

I am glad you admit it.

I said we're done.

How civil.

I'm really sorry, but you don't get to dictate to me whether I choose to continue to point out your hypocrisy or not. For you to accuse anyone else of not being a Christian would be funny if it were not tragic.

The problem that always arises, and it has done on this thread, is that there's a certain brand of 'Christian' who claim that they are the only true Christians, that everyone else who takes that label but practises differently is wrong and that only their brand of the faith is the true one. The arrogance is monumental.

The bottom line is that you don't know. Nobody can prove that there is a God, never mind be able to speak to what he/she is thinking. There is only belief. Belief is not objective truth. The truth of whether there is a God and what they believe should be cannot be known.

So we should all show a little humility and decency, and accept each other for what we are without judgement.

🙄

And that is no more than I expected from you. You have no arguments, no humility, only the rigid framework of your beliefs. And in your eyes, what you believe is right and therefore everyone else is wrong. How is that not arrogant?

I'm an atheist, but I'm prepared to always admit the possibility that I might be wrong. Are you?

@bestbefore

There is no "the church" there are many different churches, many are very open and welcoming to gay people. My last church was about 1/3 gay in the congregation (c of e) and we flew the rainbow flag for pride and put on events. Please don't tarnish all with the same brush!

And I know several gay clergy! Cathedrals can be the most welcoming of all btw

pointythings
I'm an atheist, but I'm prepared to always admit the possibility that I might be wrong.

Might that make you an agnostic rather than an atheist? I mean, the not being sure you might not be wrong?

I've thought about this and no, I don't think so. I genuinely believe that there is no God, which makes me an atheist. At the same time I know enough about science and reason to accept that I can't know any of this with any degree of certainty. I also derive immense comfort from my belief that there is no God.

That seems a very reasonable position to hold, as well as not being arrogant. I salute you!

You don't know me @pointythings.

Not personally, no. But your adherence to one particular interpretation of the Bible anfd everything that flows from that says much about the kind of Christian you are - the kind that does not accept that there is not a single knowable truth, only belief, and that people have differing beliefs which are all equally valid until the moment we have evidence one way or another.

There is a possibility that you are correct in everything you believe. But there is an equal possibility that I am the one who is correct, and there are many other possibilities, all of which have equal validity. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know. Are you?

Of course @pointythings but in following Jesus the truths are more absolute.

He went thataway! ----->

Do you not see that at the point where you decide to 'follow Jesus', you choose a particular interpretation of his words, his teachings and God's ideas, and in so doing you take a leap of faith? The moment you choose faith over thought, there are no more absolute truths - there's only belief.

Lots of Christians the world over would say exactly what you have just said in your post - and mean something completely different. You can't all be right.

It occurs to me to wonder why, if "nobody cometh to the Father but through me", anyone born before Christ was, or born into a different religion, or simply never having heard of Christ, a large majority of humanity to date, must of necessity be deprived of ever coming to the Father. We have authority that there are "virtuous pagans" who have a special bit of hell to themselves (is it the first circle, which is Limbo really? It's a long time since I read Dante) and a chance of ultimate salvation, but as far as I remember from Mediaeval studies there was a very limited number of them, all rather prominent people: Homer, Horace, Ovid, Lucan, Saladin, Socrates, Virgil, Heraclitus... And none from Scandinavia or the Americas or Australia. We are also left with the problem of still-born children who have not been baptised while they are alive and thus cannot come to the Father because they have not acknowledged Christ. Being hot on the letter of the law, or as some assert, the Truth of the Bible, seems to condemn an awfully large number of innocents.

No one is innocent because of original sin- we are all guilty from conception onwards.

So hell awaits anyone who doesn't happen (didn't happen) to be The Right Sort Of Christian, according to The Right Sort of Christian. Unless they were the Virgin Mary, who clearly wasn't a Christian of the Right Sort because she never went to England, but struck lucky.

I find myself not thinking much of that as a belief-structure.

Perfectly, civilly homophobic. 😊

Some of the biblical interpretation among Christians will differ - no question, and that's okay because not everything is black and white. Examples would be Eschatology, worship styles, how a church is governed, what we eat or don't, whether tattoos or alcohol are allowed, how to dress. These are what you might call secondary issues. There are however core beliefs, central to the gospel, which should not be compromised on. These can be found in the Apostle's Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

See also 1 Corinthians 15.

This is so interesting! I would consider myself somewhere in that grey area between atheist and agnostic, but I have often felt somewhat envious of people with a strong faith. My Nanny is deeply religious and her faith provides so much comfort during dark times. It must be nice to so vehemently believe in something that you feel will always support you, you know? So my question is: Can you expand on your last sentence, please? Just put of my curiosity!