Sad our church turned its back on dd

[TeenLifeMum]

Dd has been to church all her life. At one point we moved to a different church that suited us more but we made lovely friends etc and dd was attending youth group until she was 15. Suddenly she was less keen but focusing on GCSEs so we didn’t push it. With clubs etc for the other dc, regular attendance dropped a bit but we were fairly relaxed.

I believe in god but have always had issues with “the church”, but put that aside to be with people of faith.

I recently learned why dd stopped going to youth - they did a full session on how they should pray for gay people in the hope of healing them. How they are so angry about people loving each other is beyond me.

dd is gay. Her girlfriend is loving, kind, polite, and caring. I want all my dc to have loving healthy relationships so have no issue and naively thought others wouldn’t care. Turns out they do. Two of her closest friends stepped away due to her being gay (parents we’d met through church) and now she understandably doesn’t want to go to church, and neither do I.

I’m angry. I hope they’re really proud of themselves from their high horses. On the off chance they’re on here - no, you’re not good Christians.

Thanks for humouring my rant.

I'm so sorry to hear this. I know of a number of churches where sexuality is not an issue, and where the vicars are gay, where your DD would have been made to feel very welcome. I hope you and she can find your way to one of those eventually.

Of course, since, according to (probably second-hand at best) reports of Jesus' teaching from the same source, there will be no marriage in Heaven, a lot of people who have been holier-than-thou on the subject are in for a nasty shock (assuming Heaven exists and assuming that they get there in spite of bigotry, bile and hatred). Matthew 22:30 bites them in a bum a bit.

St Paul having said when talking about being celibate and single that 'To the unmarried and widows I say that it is best for them to remain as I am [celibate and single]. But if they do not have self-control, let them get married. For it is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire.' (1 Cor. 7:8–9) indicates that if they marry they are weak-willed feeble creatures at best anyway, not Real Christians like St Paul...

(KJV has "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
Very ambiguous: but which of the umpteen translations/interpretations of it do you go by? Burn with sexual desire or burn in hell? How do you translate "contain"? And so on. This is one of the reasons that "strict Biblical reading" is codswallop, and anyone claiming to score points doing it might as well claim that they fully understand the Revelation of St John the Divine for all the credence I am likely to give to them.)

Shortly I expect someone to offer up the Shakespeare wotcha that "the Devil can quote Scripture for his purpose" and I shall suffer an acute attack of the gigglies.

One of the main reasons the CofE is not a cult is because many in it disagree profoundly with each other yet are still welcome in it.
There is no one personality who is always right and if you disagree you're out.
On this very topic there are CofE members who, like me, don't think people can change sex but think the church should conduct same sex marriages, those who think the opposite, those who think both and those who think neither.

I suspect that I ought to have said it is a sect, which I don't think can be so easily refuted. Cult was the wrong word, and I apologise.

I don't have to explain anything.

Cool story bro. Doesn't take away from from what I said.

Of course it does @erwachen.

Matthew 22:30 bites them in a bum a bit.

How so? I am well aware of this verse, it has no relevance to the discussion. @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

(1 Cor. 7:8–9) indicates that if they marry they are weak-willed feeble creatures at best anyway, not Real Christians like St Paul...

That is a very strange interpretation.

I doubt very much that you can. Your feeble replies to my other points demonstrate your incapacity in this respect.

Goodness me, your arrogance is off the scale.

And "Whether you like it or not, the bottom line is:" isn't? Beam, mote, dear.

The thing about fundamentalist evangelicals is that no one ever interprets the Bible completely literally, not even the New Testament. There are always passages where the 'experts' explain that things were different in Paul's day. So they are picking and choosing which verses to interpret as timeless universal commands, and which verses to interpret through a more culturally relative lens.

@cowleycyclist See my previous post about "cherry picking" Bible passages. The ones you highlighted were merely guidelines from Paul to a specific church with specific problems rather than a moral commandment from God - which does not change, because the nature of God does not change.
Also, the verses I gave are not the only ones about sexual immorality - it is reiterated time and time again, throughout the Scriptures:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/sexual_immorality

Paul did not support slavery. He also wrote, "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so." 1 Corinthians 7:21.

What?

It really doesn't. Gay people can get married, in the UK and many other countries. Despite the best efforts of homophobes like the ones on this thread.

There's a reason it is still not universally available within the church and it has nothing to do with homophobia. @erwachen

It's a reference to something in the bible. Something Christ is reported as having said. Since you don't seem to recognise it (I'd expect someone so expert on all things Christianity to do so, but hey) I'll help you with that: Matthew 7:3-5

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Actually, I think your house may be built upon sand. (same speech as reported by Matthew)

It has everything to do with homophobia.

And my point still stands. Gay people can get married. Whether you like it or not, and I suspect the latter.

You are wrong and as a non Christian, you have no authority to dictate how Christians think in such matters or interpret our holy books. I don't see anyone challenging those of the Jewish or Islamic faiths on the same topics.

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. John 14:15-21.

That would be because I don't use the King James Version. I am very familiar with these verses which are frequently used by non Christians in the wrong context (as demonstrated above).

When did I say I'm a non Christian? And I never claimed to have authority to dictate how Christians interpret the Bible. Neither do you, or anyone else.

Plenty people challenge Jewish and Muslim positions on homosexuality.

You can keep repeating "you are wrong" like a tantruming toddler all you want, but marriage equality has been legal in parts of the world for over two decades. Gay people can get married, that is a fact.

When did I say I'm a non Christian? So are you? @erwachen

We're done @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime.

The church I grew up attending, and who wanted nothing to do with me when I realised I was gay (including my parents who chose church rather than their child), is now one of these inclusive churches. The church members also didn't tolerate children, tutting and shooshing them, and making it clear that in church a child was to be seen and not heard. At least three vicars tried and failed to change attitudes and make the place more welcoming.
They've finally had a new vicar who has brought about this this change and stood up to the congregation, but I'm not so sure that the people who attend and are youth leaders / on the church council have genuinely changed their beliefs and attitudes. A charter mark flag doesn't necessarily mean the church members will be welcoming.

You've already decided I'm not.

I don't have time to look back through all your past posts @erwachen but I would be very surprised, given your hostility towards me on this thread, if it turned out you were.

There we have it then. The authority on the matter has declared I can't be.

Although it's a bit rich of you to accuse me of hostility.

I have actually been very civil given the attitude of a lot of posters on this thread.