Are schools getting more strict and controlling?also are secondary schools to big

[Loveithateit]

At dd school (secondary) there are 2 compulsory homework clubs a week. Plus there's home work for actually at home to . If home work is due in on the Friday If it's not handed in on the Wednesday. They are made to stay after school to get it done.

They have 4 role calls a day. School controls when and when a student can't remove their blazer.

They get into trouble over things out of their control . Example : schools uniform is very expensive. Income low parent manages to sort all the main school uniform but struggles with part of the PE kit.

I think if things were a little less strict students would be happier there for enjoy school and work better. I personally don't think most of this stuff is to ready children for the adult world. You don't get held behinde at work if you forget a pen.

If school uniform was more practical and comfortable I think students would work better.

Also if home work is due Friday then it's due Friday . Not Wednesday. It's just more pressure on the child why do it.

I'm not in the position to home school my child but I totally get why more people are doing it.

@pinkdelight I don't have a point. I was just correcting Goldbar 🙂

Do you not see how enforcing rules leads to a better learning environment?

Apologies! As you were :)

But school is for the child's benefit. Different schools (and indeed different governments) just have different ideas about how schools can best benefit children. A draconian school will have very clear ideas about how their draconian methods benefit the children, as will a more liberal, relaxed school. They will both probably have at least some valid points. Unless the government decides that every single school must have identical policies, all you can do is choose the local school that appeals to you most, or home school. You're surely not suggesting that parents should just be allowed to de-register their children and not educate them at all?!

@Loveithateit in fairness it's quite evident you didn't go
To mainstream school, maybe you shouldn't home school if you can't tell the difference between 'to and too'

I've never really understood the 'if parents don't like the school, then they can just educate their children themselves, can't they?' argument.

We don't expect parents to provide medical treatment to their own children if they're dissatisfied with the standard of care they receive from doctors and hospitals.

We'd never expect a parent who couldn't get a dentist for their child, or who wasn't happy with their child's dentist, to do their own child's fillings or braces, would we?

Schools receive a lot of money, and teachers are paid, to provide children with a good, enriching standard of education, to help them develop as individuals and to help equip them with the skills to succeed in later life.

They are meant to be the professionals. Parents are not.

Parents do have a role to play in educating their children, just like they have a role to play in ensuring their welfare and good health. But parents are not educational professionals being paid to provide a service of a good standard to children. Their role is a supporting one. They should be able to rely on the school to do its part.

As it is, too many parents have to step in because their children are not receiving a good enough education or because school is proving actively harmful to their children in some way.

Giving punishments over petty rules about, say, sock colour or style of earrings does NOT lead to a better learning environment. Limiting your rules to ones which are actually important and necessary and then enforcing them strongly absolutely does lead to a better learning environment, and makes students more likely to respect the rules and the rule-enforcers, instead of (quite understandably) thinking 'How does wearing nail varnish prevent me from learning? You're wearing nail varnish, Miss. Does it prevent you from teaching?'. Only make rules which are actually worthwhile and worth the considerable effort and time it takes teachers to enforce them.

It's you who's advocating kids walking out of school (to do FA), not me. I give up.

Schools are woefully underfunded and increasingly understaffed. They are also swamped with increasing numbers of students with complex problems and needs. Most schools do the best they can to give kids a great education, within the parameters that constrain them. If parents are not happy with any of the schools available to them, what other option is there but to home school their child? Besides, what some parents want the school to do/provide might be the exact opposite of what other parents want. Schools cannot ever hope to please everyone.

I'm not sure my posts are that difficult to understand tbh.

A poster upthread said that schools were not necessarily run for the children's benefit - if that's the case, compelling children to attend by force of law seems unethical imo.

And yes, parents can home educate but few can/do so I don't think that argument works.

I have always understood the reason behind compulsory education as being that it was for the benefit of the children.

Imo when people say that school isn't for the benefit of children, what they really mean is just 'I don't agree with some things about the way some schools are run these days'. Obviously children benefit from having an education.

I agree that schools have a difficult job and are woefully under-resourced. I just don't think that's an excuse for having school rules that dehumanise children and result in a failure to treat them with dignity and compassion.

Hospitals are hugely overstretched too but we still view it as an unacceptable failing when patients are not provided with dignified, compassionate care.

I guess that like @AllProperTeaIsTheft I'm looking at it from a perspective of how things actually are and you're in a more abstract/idealistic mode, which may be great for lobbying etc but nothing's going to be good enough because the kids grow up to be the professionals and the parents and there's a lot of flaws to grapple with. Some accept that and work within it trying to do as much good as is possible though probably doing some harm along the way. Some decry it as not good enough and say walk out... to which I still have to ask, and then what?

Yes, they are. Too many draconian rules, and the current approach is why EBSA and deregistration are both on the increase. They can’t make students attend homework clubs outside of school hours. You as a parent get to decide whether or not that’s beneficial and whether or not you consent.

I believe it’s because up until fairly recently (in the last 20 years) it was common for kids to drop out after GCSE. Then with the introduction of mandatory education until 18, numbers staying in school increased. This also goes back further up until the late 90s where up until then, it was common (in working classes at least) for lots of kids to drop out of school at 15 or so. The compulsory aspect of education up until age 18, in conjunction with population increases, has resulted in way more children being in schools that simply weren’t built for those numbers.

I think we should adopt the system they have in other countries of a separate middle and high school. Middle school years 7-9, high school years 10-13. Smaller schools, smaller numbers of children, more pastoral care, rules adapted for the ages of the children rather than all children aged 11-18 expected to follow the same blanket rules, less of a huge jump between primary and secondary. But obviously this would not be easy!

@Bear0511 education is not mandatory until 18.
16 is still the leaving age.
In England 16 - 18 year olds are expected (but not enforced) to be in Education, training or employment.

I agree that schools have a difficult job and are woefully under-resourced. I just don't think that's an excuse for having school rules that dehumanise children and result in a failure to treat them with dignity and compassion.

I agree. I don't approve of these draconian schools. But I also think it's incorrect to conclude from the existence of these schools that 'schools are not run to benefit children'. Some parents like these very strict schools and find them beneficial to their children.

There is no denying that the behaviour problems in many schools are very detrimental to children's learning, safety and mental health. Schools want their students to be able to learn, free from disruption, and to feel safe in school. Many school leaders believe that having lots of rules and a high level of control, and being very strict on the little things will filter up and have a strong effect on behaviour, right up to the big things. I happen to disagree, but I do believe they believe it, and think they are doing this in the students' best interests.

Uniform doesn’t improve discipline - that’s a fallacy. (www.suttontrust.com/news-opinion/all-news-opinion/smaller-classes-uniforms-primary-homework-among-least-effective-ways-boosting-school-performance/ From yesterdays thread about this).

It’s a nonsense to argue that “you chose the school, you knew what to expect”. For many people there is no real choice in where their DC go to school.

Some schools are far too strict and it has a disastrous effect, especially on the quiet, introverted children, to the extent that the number of children being pulled out to be home educated is rising sharply. Mental illness is also increasing in adolescents.
Who does strict discipline benefit? Not the children, that’s for sure.

The advantage of large schools is that funding is determined by pupil numbers and the larger schools can afford to offer more subjects like philosophy and economics.

People on MN pay or want to pay to send their children to a school like that.

I totally agree Op... I'm a teacher myself and these descriptions send shivers. Thanks goodness we had choice of a non uniform, relaxed school locally ( new system called Educate together schools in Ireland) and my kids are thriving there... The teachers are very friendly and atmosphere is more like a college than a school... Kids have to self motivate which won't suit all kids but my oldest who has dyslexia and ADD and had a rough time in primary has just done his final exams and got nearly full marks and has just started engineering in university.. and my kids always tell me there's hardly any bullying which amazes me... So this very 'human' kind of system can work...I'm so glad this option was available for us, he loved his school years

Wow that's nasty . So you see I didn't go to mainstream. That points out learning difficulties. Or I would have been at mainstream. Whilst digging at me you have digged at every child /adult who has learning difficulties/ehcp. Well done you 👏

Where did i say anything about me doing home education for my child

This sounds fabulous and is definitely what I would choose if I had a choice. Unfortunately we don't. We are going to view our local secondary tomorrow night and I'm really unsure. It's big, mixed catchment, flunked ofsted for reading progress and SEN and DD is dyslexic, and is now going down a 'sweat the small stuff' disciplinarian route. It's the only secondary school in the area so have no real choice.

Round here you put 6 schools in order of preference. When my son was starting secondary we got given one that we had not listed it was known as the worst school in the area. I wanted to cry at the time. It was an awful thought. But actually he did really well and he was happy there. It was nothing like I thought it would be. So I sent dd there . But since she started it's gone to the other extreme very strict etc. I don't think i will be choosing to send my younger children there.

But unless your lucky and get your first choice of school. Then you don't really choose the school.

In Ireland it's not perfect but we've a much more light touch inspection system, nothing at all like Ofsted. School teaching is seen as a good career with good conditions and most teachers stay in teaching for a long career. I'm a 49 year old primary school teacher and hoping to work till retirement . I can't relate to the posts on MN about long working hours, we usually leave the school shortly after school closes every day. I'm so experienced that lots planning isn't necessary anymore. I love my job and love being around the kids. We have a tendency to follow UK trends though so hopefully an Oftsted like system isn't coming down the tracks it seems to be having a terrible impact in the UK

That's really rude - having a dig at someone for not going to mainstream school is pretty low. We all make mistakes - you did in your comment - and some people find writing their thoughts down trickier than others. Doesn't make them any less valid though.