DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

I can’t speak for New Zealand but for all the reasons you (or your DH) have stated we have recently moved to Australia with kids slightly older than yours. Somethings have been tough but it has been 100 per cent worth it - the DC are thriving and we are all happier.

That’s a really mean thing to say to someone asking for advice, it’s not true either. People actually have to pay a mortgage which means they don’t pay the original asking price they pay way, way more, they also have to pay a lot to just maintain any property over the years and inflation over those same years means that the original capital paid is not a true reflection of the value accrued, add in stamp duty paid and solicitors fees etc twice.
Tax has been paid and why should a parent not be able to gift their own possessions they have ‘toiled’ for to their children?
Not many other countries have such punitive tax regimes/punishments for their citizens, what makes you believe they are all wrong and the current Government are right? People leaving and taking their wealth and talents with them is not helpful for the UK.
That said this was meant to be a discussion on merits of UK v NZ. We too wonder about the merits of both but I think for us our love of UK life will mean we return there instead of NZ. We are hoping the current Government will see how much revenue is lost by being too punitive, in the meantime we may do a few years back in NZ as the pre retirement phase as working life in our Industry is my much nicer there with less stress and hours required than our current posting.
Could you do a ‘posting’ there and see how it goes without making a final decision?

I think I must be living in a different NZ than the one being posted about on here.

We have central heating, double glazing, winter temperature hardly drops below 10C. My husband rang to see GP on Tuesday am, got an appt in afternoon. There is an article in our local newspaper about jobs unfilled locally paying salaries of over $150K, around £75K.

Yes, we have our problems but bloody hell the exaggerations on here are ridiculous.

It is true. Our house would currently sell for five times what we paid for it. It was “earning” more than we were at one point. None of that notional money has ever been taxed. Or earned for that matter.

I know 3 kiwis. All live in the UK (one for over 40 years). None have any plans to go back. All say the cost of living in NZ and the lack of opportunity are the main reasons.

I think what your DH really needs is a good accountant and some good financial advice.

If the Dukes of Norfolk, Westminster and Devonshire (who probably own most of England) see no need to flee overseas, why should you?

Give my regards to Wal and Dog @CheekyHobson !

Unless you down size area or house though @BIossomtoes you will need all of that price growth just to move. Stamp duty for a lot of family homes in the SE is six figures (yes I know not everyone lives here!). We could not afford to buy our current, not flash house if we relied on an 10-20% deposit plus our salaries. The thing that saved us the thousands over the years was an off set mortgage…If we were to pay CGT on the price rise, we would be forced to radically downsize which probably means a large-ish flat.

I know that. I thought we were discussing inheritance tax when the recipient of a mortgage free house gets an unearned windfall, the majority of which has never been taxed.

Then you are very lucky and I’m genuinely pleased for you. This is not the case for us, I guess it’s luck of the area you bought in and differing interest rates paid over time.
The post is asking for help re UK v NZ which is potentially a huge life changing decision so I still think the comment was totally unnecessary but rather predictable.

You are me, 15 years ago. I gave in, left my amazing City job, and we headed back, kids in tow. Do I regret it now? Not a bit.

I have enjoyed a great career, and my husband has too. Yes, it took a while to get established again. But so many positives. Great educations. Loads of day trips skiing every winter. My kids have ridden, played in orchestras, had lots of overseas trips. But most importantly they have grown up in a country that is pretty relaxed about where you come from and who you know. It feels safe, it feels simple. You can still ring up the bank or the insurance company and have a conversation without being treated with suspicion.

Yes, it is more expensive than it was. But we still have no stamp duty, no capital gains, no inheritance tax, no gift duty. You can transfer your pension without penalty (to certain providers - it is a real faff) in the first few years.

And there is no way mushrooms are six pounds a punnet - that is a completely uninformed statement.

Christchurch is really good now - new, beautiful and still more building work ongoing. Lots of students, and pretty vibrant. Wellington is - well - Wellington. And Auckland hasn't changed since we left it years ago.

We have been back to the UK several times since we left. And all over Europe. It is still doable. You just have to work out what you value in your life - now, and in your later years. Hope to see you home soon!

Most of these posts seem to think that NZ is only Auckland.

As a South Islander I'm used to that.

I’m intrigued by the posters who say they would move to Nz tomorrow but without any context. If you’re a consultant doctor hop on a plane and you’ll live the dream - otherwise there are not many avenues open to a comfortable transition. Unless you earn roughly $300k Nz (say £150k) you’ll be struggling to live the utopian lifestyle idealised by some.

Nz is great if you are rich (earning figures like the above) so you can have a house that you can heat, a holiday house and a boat and afford the lovely food. All my family live in unheated homes in sub freezing temperatures so I no longer visit Nz during the months of of May - October.

whenever people talk about the CoL crisis and not being afford to heat their homes I just think of Nz where food prices are triple what they are here and most people don’t have central heating in their homes, much less worry about how long to turn it on for or at what temperature. I’d never lived in a house with a thermostat until I came to the uk aged 27 (and I used to live in Dunedin where it was below zero regularly).

OP I think you’ve got enough money to live off in Nz but it really depends on your social network and how robust your kids are. I commented earlier in this thread about n Nz schools v uk private schools as that’s something I have some insight into.

@FiveShelties where are you? Genuine q.; my sisters are now waiting 3 weeks for a (paid for) GP appt - but I think they could go to urgent care if they really needed it. What I would do for proper urgent care centres in the uk, there’s a real gap here that Nz does well.

My parents are in a South Island town (north of Dunedin, south of Christchurch) and can get GP appointments no trouble. But anything requiring consultants is a long wait.

@Twinklefloss we are in Hawke's Bay. We used to just ring and make an appt, but now we have triage. I thought this was going to mean we would wait ages for appt but it works well..

I must say that quite a lot of the GPS here are Brits, but we are definitely short of doctors as are many areas I think. We pay $66 per visit, around £34, which takes my breath away after paying nothing in England.

We too thought about moving back to our country but decided not to for our children. A study recently showed that even moving within a country (not even halfway around the world) increases the risk of mental health issues in kids and in today’s world we decided not to take the risk.

From a New York Times article:

“More surprising was the increased risk for adults who moved more than once between the ages of 10 and 15: They were 61 percent more likely to suffer from depression in adulthood compared with counterparts who had not moved, even after controlling for a range of other individual-level factors, the researchers found.”

It is not an easy decision - good luck!

I sure will, honey.

You could look into family trusts.

I don't know much about NZ, but I gather things aren't looking too stable atm. The only friend we know who went back is an old hippy, and she's happy there. I also knew a retired couple who lived six months here and six months in NZ, which worked for them.

For me a big thing is that you don't really want to move! It's a big step, and I'm not sure how you could come back once you had made the move, if things didn't work out.

I would also be concerned about the opportunities for your kids as they leave school and want to go to uni or find a career.

I wouldn't worry about the U.K. inheritance tax stuff, a lot can change in the next few decades.

before doing this, get legal advice alone as to whether a “temporary” move like this would cause your children to be considered resident in NZ should you and your DH disagree on bringing them back in 6 months. Because this is could be a forced permanent move.

@GrouchyKiwi know the area well as some of my family from Timaru/Geraldine way 👋 . It’s a 17 week wait for a consultant in London for my dd at the moment. We have an appointment letter - it’s just that it’s for next year. Though if I complain to my Nz sister about this she said I’d need to go to starship in Auckland for that particular speciality if I was in the South Island.

I do toy with the idea of 6 mths in Nz and 6 months in uk when we retire but eventually I think we’d end up in a tax and pension muddle and have to pick just one country for health care. Grown up kids will also be a factor ; they’re also dual nationals but who knows where they’ll settle (and they may end up in a completely different country altogether).

@Firethehorse You say why should a parent not be able to gift their own possessions they have ‘toiled’ for to their children? They can! £1m per couple plus unlimited gifts made during their lifetime (>7 years before they die). Pensions are also outside IHT which could be more than another £2m. Is that not enough …?! Good grief, the handwringing about a policy which could change 15 times before it affects OP is a crazy reason to move to the other side of the world.

@NewspaperDoll possible changes in the October budget may both tax pensions, limit isa savings and lower iht threshold. I think that’s what the OP’s dh is focussing on (and me too as a dual national uk-Nz)

pensions are tax already, are you suggesting that pensions within a pension pot that can’t yet been touched will be taxed?

A tiny percentage of people pay inheritance tax, with planning it can easily be avoided and I would find it in same to move to the other side of the world to avoid a potential tax that you will be not paying yourself because you will be dead

I haven't read all the 12 pages of comments on here but I want to throw another idea into the equation. Most of the reasons against NZ seem to be finance related but so do the ones about the UK or rather the UK we can see looming up. Rather than some mid-life crisis, I think your husband might be thinking about avoiding all the strife in the UK and getting your little ones moved ASAP so as to avoid disrupting their schooling as far as possible.
So my idea was what about all going to NZ next summer holidays and don't make any decision beforehand.

Another idea is Australia which has few of NZ's faults and it's feasible to have holidays in NZ to keep up with friends.
Lastly, by the time your kids have flown the nest, you will be able to have lng stay holidays in Europe and probably see more than you would driving from UK !