DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

He hates feeling poor.

How on earth can he be feeling poor?

He sounds as though he needs some counselling, combined with a healthy dose of reality.

Totally @saraclara. We are of course not poor! We do have a cash flow situation this month but that’s because loads of annual bills have come out etc. And like nearly everyone I know, (unless they’ve super charged their careers) we are worse off than five years ago. But that’s life in the West I guess!

There is a recognised syndrome in psychology called Ebeneezer Scrooge, based on trauma. So childhood poverty can leave real wounds, trauma, bitterness, resentment, fear etc.

”…we don’t want somewhere homogenous culturally or ethnically…”

Thats a very narrow view of the UK. My dc went to schools in one of the Home Counties, and there were people of all races, colours etc. , and I’m talking about a town you probably would consider as ‘white’.

I'm a New Zealander and have been settled in the UK for years with kids about yours age. Every time I've been home everyone, family, friends etc, would always ask "when are you coming home for good" but when I was home last year they were all now saying "Don't do it" and this totally floored me. It's a beautiful country with the friendliest people but to live there now is a struggle for most, not to mention the range of social problems present in the community.

There are nice beaches in the UK too, but obviously not if you don’t leave London! I would say the beaches in South Wales where I grew up are the best I’ve seen on all my global travels (admittedly not been to Australia, but I have travelled around NZ)

I have to say I think moving due to not having to pay inheritance tax is a really, really daft reason. Do you really want to move to somewhere you call dull so when you’re dead you don’t have to pay as much tax! 🤷‍♀️

if you think job prospects for you and your kids are dire here and better in NZ (I have no idea which is better,), or if you thought crime was so bad here, etc that might be different. Or if you thought NZ was the best place ever.

ultimately you can’t have done too bad for yourself in this country if you are planning to leave enough to your kids to worry about IT. It might all go on care home fees. It’s 40% on anything above 325k isn’t it? So 325k tax free, then 60% of anything above that for your kids…..so doesn’t sound like you will leave them penniless when you die.

I’m neither jealous nor bitter as it happens. OP and I are pretty similar - I’m also from NZ but have lived in the UK for most of my adult life, benefitted enormously from a very high paying career in London, retired early, and am more than happy to pay tax. We all want better public services but only some of us are happy to contribute to the common good 🤷‍♀️

You won't be skint when the kids finish school. I wouldn't move just because of pensions in 30+ years. Recinsider in 20 years.

It’s £1 million per couple. If our kids wouldn’t be happy with a £1 million tax free windfall between them and 60% of anything over that our parenting has really failed.

Lucky you aren’t a billionaire @blossomtoes. The guilt may actually suffocate you…

If I were a billionaire, I would not want to pay IHT and have a Government piss it up on a Rwanda scheme and weapons. I would create really meaningful charities that actually impact people lives and I would make sure they get it. That is how most properly rich people think. That’s why we actually have proper charities that actually do proper good stuff.

What? No one has tried to strip me of that

You sound like you do want to go tbh

But these thoughts aren't "random". They're all negative. All catastrophising.

You've leaped from one bad summer to the Gulf Stream ending. From a government that's proposed a tough budget to the ending of the state pension for anyone with savings - which even if it was likely (it isn't because the govt want people to save for retirement) your DH wouldn't be claiming for 15 years and it wouldn't be more than a small part of your retirement income anyway. Worrying that sending your chldren to a private school (where presumably they are happy and achieving academically) will somehow stop them going to good universities. Most of us have one or two extreme worries about Where It's All Going but you come up with loads of them. It sounds disproportionate.

Anxiety can be infectious, and so can the need to control the far distant future. How much of this anxiety and negativity is DH and how much is you?

As others have said a married couple can leave up to 1 million tax free if a chunk of it is in the family home and left to their children.

If you don't want the state to get any inheritance tax from you you can give away your cash and as long as you survive 7 years after doing so this falls outside of inheritance tax. For example you could downsize/cash in investments and give your children the money for a house when they are older as well as spend your cash enjoying yourself and bring you estate below the thresholds for inheritance tax. After all you can't take it with you.

Lucky you aren’t a billionaire . The guilt may actually suffocate you…

That’s a bit unnecessary. Would you want your kids to be beyond greedy? If you were a billionaire you could leave your money to good causes whose beliefs accord with yours. That way it would all be tax free. Of course it’s all immaterial anyway because by the time it becomes an issue you’re dead.

I didn't say you were a taker.
I said this country has done you more than ok, through your hard work, yes, but also the opportunities it has provided you, and imo it's a poor show to run off in case you have to pay more taxes.

I say that as a person who is in a very similar financial position to yourself, and who also holds citizenship of another country.

Because I live in Sydney with many, many migrants my age (early 30s) from New Zealand who say so.

The data backs it up too:

https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/nz-news/350400440/generation-swipe-why-young-kiwis-are-fleeing-nz#:~:text=Each%20month%20in%20the%20last,in%20the%20tens%20of%20thousands.&text=Hutt%20joined%20the%20crowds%20headed%20out%20of%20the%20country%20in%202022.

Because I live in Sydney with many, many migrants my age (early 30s) from New Zealand who say so.

The data backs it up too:

https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/nz-news/350400440/generation-swipe-why-young-kiwis-are-fleeing-nz#:~:text=Each%20month%20in%20the%20last,in%20the%20tens%20of%20thousands.&text=Hutt%20joined%20the%20crowds%20headed%20out%20of%20the%20country%20in%202022.

You might be surprised by NZ, which has bought heavily into TWAW - that's the belief that transwomen (men) are women. But it's a beautiful country.
I did vote for Brexit. Because I understand that free movement of LABOUR is about lowering wages and rights across the EU. It is allowed to undermine trades union rights, especially when right of establishment is in question i.e. the EU will support the business start-up bringing in cheaper labour from a poorer EU country to undermine local wages and workers' rights. As a socialist, I find this insupportable, not to mention just wrong.
I also considered the EU to be racist, one example being free movement which favours white Europeans over anyone else (a particular problem for the UK). One-third of immigrants voted to Leave, based on the what they considered the exclusion of non-whites in favour of pan-European immigration.
I live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the UK - and it is not always lovely, we had Muslim v Hindu riots for weeks on end in 2022, which did not get reported until it was impossible to keep quiet about them. I also come from an ethnically diverse family.
As to the UK and racism, it is the most tolerant country in Europe, and there is very little overt racism. I have not found this to be the case in e.g. Italy (ex-husband subject to awful racism there) and France and Spain, sadly.
I am sorry you got the wrong end of the stick, thinking I had suggested that you voted for Brexit and this had to do with racism. I don't think, obviously, that voting to leave the EU makes someone a racist.

Sorry wrong end of stick from me then @Grammarnut . I thought you meant I was suggesting we were unhappy with the ethnic make up of the UK as I did not explain what I meant by demographic. To me, being in the EU was about giving all of our DC and yours the opportunity to live and travel in multiple other countries unrestricted. As someone who grew up in a land far away and having spent time in places with v restricted borders (won’t go into that as it’s a diversion!), I find the idea of being stuck in one country terrifying. Even a lovely place like the UK. I also understand it must be frustrating if you have extended family or friends excluded from coming here or having to go through expensive visa processes just to come on holiday here when they may have a closer connection to the UK than many continental Europeans.

Ps I am not anti NZ specifically- I love NZ personally, had some lovely holidays there and agree it would be a nice place to live. The fact that everyone thinks social attitudes are regressive made me laugh- it's far more progressive there generally than the UK, it must be Australia's social regression and conservatism that people are misapplying to NZ.

But I would say the same even if she said she wanted to move to Sydney, where I live. You have two children who lived their childhood in UK. They're never going to feel socially attached or rooted in AU/ NZ. If they move, and there's a good chance they will, the travel will be significant.

NZ is in exactly the same demographic and economic situation as the UK, and every other western country. Aging population, debt, declining public services, falling living standards, cost of living, high cost of property. For $3.5million you would get a nice modern house relatively central, nothing fabulous but nice enough. Rates (basically council tax) in Auckland on that property will be $6-8k per year alone. Electricity, food, clothes are more expensive than the UK. Travel obviously is too. I think you would struggle financially if your DH is not working with 2 children about to enter the very expensive years. State school might be free, but university is not, will they have to take student loans? I dont think the $2million NZ left over after buying a house will afford anywhere near the lifestyle you currently have. And if you buy a cheaper house, bear in mind the cheapest house in the worst areas, miles from the city centre is still $1million.
Auckland is extremely pretentious and while they dont have the UK class system, they do, its just based entirely on how much money you have and flaunt. There is a fabulous lifestyle for sure enjoyed by the very wealthy on their boats in the harbour, baches in the Coromandel, ski trips to Queenstown, and regular jaunts to Europe. But for most people I see there it looks like a pretty hard slog to keep head above water. If your DH keeps earning as he is today youd be ok, but if its early retirement he's after, Id say thats 10 years away.

That's a lovely reply. Thank you.

We're in Penang, Malaysia. Idk I guess it would be hard but we're so used to the Malaysia to UK journey that it seems quite do-able.

About the 1950s thing. There's a truth in it, but in a complicated way. I've lived half my life in the UK and half in NZ.

Life in NZ is simpler, a bit slower, there aren't as many consumer or recreational options, houses often don't have the comforts that UK houses have had for a couple of generations. People are more straightforward in NZ - I'm sorry to say that when I return to the UK I find people are constantly trying to bullshit me. NZers are polite but not particularly friendly. Under the niceness, they're incredibly reserved, which I guess is very 1950s too. They are also very stoic and undemonstrative in a way the UK used to be (say the 1950s) and incorrectly thinks it still is.