Looks likely a vote on assisted dying is imminent

[fragrantdog]

‘A vote to introduce assisted dying across the UK could be imminent after Downing Street reiterated that it would not obstruct a private member’s bill on the issue and indicated it would support an MP in drafting it.’

Whilst the UK cannot afford to give its citizens decent physical and mental healthcare and until we invest in a robust and caring social and care system , I think to introduce euthanasia is unethical and dangerous. So many people are now suffering, really suffering from multiple chronic longterm health conditions, which are not properly managed. Elderly people worry what will happen to them when they need hospital or care. The worry about being a burden is real.

It's sad because on the whole I think its a good idea , but I have lost a bit of faith in everything over the last few years . I hope if it is past, the laws are robust .

Now they might have to worry about being bumped off if they get ill. I don't trust the uk not to make a mess out of this

Why are we so behind the curve on this? Spain, a country where most shops still don't open on a Sunday because religion has had euthanasia since 2021.

People can offer up a few examples of where they think the assisted dying system isn't perfect in other countries or in specific cases - but they are a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers of people whose horrible, painful, traumatic deaths are being dragged out over weeks, months or even years here.

People always say 'but what about people who feel like a burden?' and I'm always baffled by that. If people are really feeling like such a terrible burden that they want assisted suicide then why would you want to force them to continue living and feeling that? Why would you want them to live in that misery? If I felt like a terrible burden, where I couldn't look after myself and needed my kids to wash me and wipe my ass then I wouldn't want someone to say that that wasn't a good enough reason to choose assisted suicide. What's the alternative? Go in a care home and have someone I don't know wipe my ass? No thanks!

Assisted dying is like having an abortion. If you don't want it/one that's fine, but don't take away other people's choices.

The problem is the law is made for the “hard cases” but once in place there will be amendments.

The criteria are always widened.

Those without capacity have the decision made by others “in their best interests” ie death.

Cost inevitably plays a part- decisions made on the ethics of using public money to keep someone alive for longer with expensive palliative care or a cheaper, quicker death.

Societal expectations will turn to choosing death being seen as the noble, “right” decision- less wastage on the public purse, less demand on health services, sparing family from unnecessary stress, expense, and loss of inheritance.

The right to die becomes the duty to die.

All this, in the name of mercy.

It was the Guardian, and personally I voted Labour although in truth I feel politically homeless.

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/sep/15/assisted-dying-vote-no-10-bill

I don't trust the government enough on this. There needs to be much better care and support for disabilities and for elderly people before we'll be ready.

In theory, I'm in favour, but it's not an easy law.

My feeling is that it should only be offered right at the end - the person is on end of life care and will die within a week. Euthanasia only to hasten the imminent inevitable.

This introduces a different point though - I DON'T think the patient should be the one to make the decision, because by the time you are suffering and near death, you can't. And why should the person who has not considered whether they want assisted dying or not but found themselves close to death and in pain be forced to suffer?

A lot of people seem to be saying they'd want to die if they were diagnosed with dementia. But I do not think it should be used for this. First of all, by the time you are diagnosed it is debatable whether you have capacity for such a major decision. And secondly, it is possible to live well with dementia for a while after diagnosis. This length of time can vary greatly between people.

With the pet example, some people have their pet put to sleep because of the care and expense it would require from them. Or because of the impact of the pet on their life , for example a dog that bites. People will choose or encourage their relatives to choose (even subconsciously) to die for their own benefit if the criteria aren't extremely tight.

I am a carer and Mum had dementia. She is a burden and as time goes on she will become more of one. Caring for her takes a toll on me. That doesn't mean I don't love her. However, her death will be a relief and a release for me, which I cannot deny. How could I ever agree knowing that I benefit from the decision? She cannot make that decision for herself and, if she had made that decision before diagnosis, when would it be carried out and who would decide?

I don't want dementia either, but euthanasia isn't the answer to it, finding a treatment and prevention is. If euthanasia was legalised for dementia, finding a cure becomes less important sadly.

We've been having these discussions for a long time on the Isle of Man (we are a self-governing crown dependency, with our own parliament, laws and health care system). The Guardian has a good article on this, this morning.

The Island is further along than the UK in this in terms of parliamentary debates and commitments. The Act is based on compassion, on an Island where the majority of the inhabitants are still religious in some way.

I support Dr Allinson's Act, and the safeguards embedded in it.

However, the UK - especially England, where I have lived and worked many times for many years, and know very well - does not have the functioning health care and social care systems necessary IMO for it to be enacted and put into practice safely at present.

I would also like to see the criminalisation of coercion to consider assisted dying / suicide. (I don't care what it's called.)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/15/progressive-reform-or-slippery-slope-isle-of-man-leans-to-legalising-assisted-dying

During Covid I visited an elderly relative regularly, did her shopping and baked her goodies. One day when I let myself in she was still in bed, asleep. This was very unusual. I couldn't wake her. In the end I called for an ambulance. She had evidently tried to commit suicide with vast amounts of painkillers.

She had a lot of pain, despite numerous doctor's appointments, and made another failed suicide attempt a few months later.

She, however lived for another couple of years, in hospitals and care homes. eventually bed bound with dementia. She was so desperately miserable for the rest of her life.

If I'd realised that she'd attempted suicide that day I would still have called an ambulance, but, looking back, I do wish that I had never visited her that day.

Nobody should have to live in pain and without dignity. I know that if she could have asked for assisted suicide she would have.

I hope we can agree that euthanasia should never be actively chosen as the easy or cheap option if staying alive could be bearable or even enjoyable with appropriate treatment and support. It should only be available when being alive is unbearable.

And who's going to decide if it's unbearable - the person bearing it or someone else who isn't living/bearing their life for them? Who's going to give them that enjoyment otherwise?

Oh, great. Not long until women in pain with treatable conditions unrelated to hormones or depression will be patted on the shoulder and told 'well, there is a way that we could stop it all' and handed a leaflet on suicide.

Hopefully it would be easy to legislate that this isn't an option to advice or suggest to anyone (It doesn't even seem ethical for a medical professional to do). However, if someone suggests it on their own, it should be followed or seriously considered at least just as any medical decision people make on their own.

“This introduces a different point though - I DON'T think the patient should be the one to make the decision…”

who should?

i do wish people would stop using the term committ suicide! its old and outdated, theres much better terms.. ended their own life, died by suicide etc.. to committ implies wrong doing or a crime..

So we should expect people to stoically embrace needless suffering for the greater good? That doesn’t sound very merciful either.

I genuinely think this should be a decision made by an individual assisted by their doctors. I suspect it’ll go through eventually. We are behind the curve on this already . Australia, New Zealand, Canada, a state in the U.S. the Netherlands and a few of our European neighbours all have assisted dying laws. There’s a private members bill on a relatively regular basis in the hoc and wasn’t there one in the last few years in the hol?

Public opinion polls all tend to show support for the right to choose assisted dying for those with terminal illness. It’ll go through at some point if not now then within the next decade.

It's ONE example of a country where it isdone badly. Better examples are available, as no doubt you are aware. I am Dutch. My grandmother had an assisted death. It was dignified, comfortable, family were there and she was in full control.

This.

All of this. I don’t want to suffer like those I know have, begging hospital staff to end it.

I don’t understand why I can’t opt for this now whilst I’m healthy and sound of mind so that medical staff know I just want to go if certain things happen to me. Cancer for one, once I’m bed bound and in pain I want my ticket cancelled!

Quite. My body my choice. I take huge exception to those of you trying to prevent me from doing what I want with my own body.
If medics have moral objections, they don't have to do anything other than refer me to someone who is willing to prescribe.

In the Netherlands you can make a living will and state your wishes in advance. That when you reach a certain stage in your dementia for example needing to go to a care home. The patient makes the decision for their future self while they still have capacity in conjunction with their doctors. It’s not a choice for their family to make.

Not many make that decision, it can’t be easy to look at your future self and make that decision.

This is an interesting point and one I hadn’t considered. I’m in favour of assisted dying since watching both parents and several pets die, while only being able to hasten the end to relieve suffering in my cats and not my parents.

My BF is terrified that he will get dementia as his dad did, and having seen two of my own GPs disappear into dementia I am also concerned. Luckily DP has access to many medications that he could use to hasten his own demise if he had the mental capacity. His worry is that he won’t have and he’s asked me if I would help him. What a terrible position to be put in, having to illegally help someone, knowing that it wouldn’t be seen as the act of love that it undoubtedly is, but as murder.

Of course there is always a worry that people could use that law in nefarious ways, but unlawful people will always find a way. It’s the lawful people who will suffer as usual.

There’s a great film on Netflix called Paddleton about this if anyone wants to watch it.

Doctors used to have the freedom to basically comatose a patient in pain in the end game, which effectively withdrew food and water and sped things along to a pain free death. Now we seem to want only give the minimum (inaequate) relief possible and relatives complain if the patient is sleeping.

The individual decision is fundamentally different from whether or not it would be the right thing to do as a law in the UK and the idea of such a bill being 'sped' through parliament only highlights the fact it has not be thought through. This is not a decision that should be taken speedily or lightly.

The fundamental difference in the way assisted dying is carried out in eg the Netherlands and Canada highlights this.

The idea of any UK government not fucking this up is impossible. It will be abused.

I am not anti the principle. I am anti the way in which it would be misused in the uk

Also there is a fundamental difference between someone in the end stages of cancer, someone with dementia, someone with clinical depression, someone with a quality of life that others percieve to be poor.

Thank you for your input, I genuinely am now swayed a little on this.

I hope that if it's put into place there will still be palliative care available for those who can't or won't want assisted dying. Some of us can't have it for religious reasons. I hope I don't just end up ignored because I can't take the obvious route out. I'm not doing it to be awkward. I already have an advance directive to refuse treatment in case of catastrophic accident and serious illness, I hope they don't withhold pain relief/sedation. I'm concerned that palliative care services are discontinued. Palliative care provision is poor enough as it is in this country.