Migrants - just curious......

[sunshinewithrain]

Are they genuinely so desperate that they will get in a rubber dingy to cross a dangerous sea to get to England?
OR
Are they 'sold' a dream?
OR
A mixture of both! And we don'it understand it properly .......
It's so sad all these people dying trying to cross the sea in such a dangerous way ......

I'd rather trust the Refugee Council who work with refugees every day than your supposition based on no knowledge whatsoever. Go and look at their website - it's very interesting and explodes many bigoted myths.

Of those who are probably not refugees but arrive by small boat are a large number of Vietnamese. They're trafficked here for work in nail bars, cannabis farms or, for some, prostitution.

Previously they would have been smuggled in lorries but a combination of the multiple deaths in one tragic incident and tightening up of security on freight only routes like those to Tilbury mean they come on the boats.

I believe that, like with Albania we now have a returns agreement so those who cannot stay get sent back pretty quickly.

You've not the foggiest idea of how Asylum provision in the UK works have you.

It looks like Starmer is meeting Italian PM and perhaps looking at Albania for processing

He will come up against greater criticism and may well find Italian methods pretty harsh in the sea and before they leave via payments to other gov. We try to save people before drownings for instance

If his 'smash the gangs' just results in higher deaths as Amnesty International state it'll be tough politically

“their choosing” doesn’t necessarily equal “desperation” though.
As I said, I get it if people want to go to a specific country.
But if they’re in France and choose to get into dodgy dinghies instead of either staying in France or going to one of the bordering EU countries where the wouldn’t need to cross water, it does make you wonder whether that’s “desperation” or something else.

Because she said this.

“My grandmother was 5 and my grandfather was 8. Their parents were fighting against Franco’s army and were given the opportunity to put a few of their children (not all) on boats to somewhere safe. They didn’t know where the boats were going.

As it turned out that boat went to England.

… my great grandmother and her remaining children lived in a refugee camp for 30 years”

I was questioning whether I had misunderstood.

My supposition is based on being from an immigrant family myself.
Do you really think people who have friends or family in the country they’re aiming to move to don’t talk to them about support available in said country?
That doesn’t necessarily mean they plan to stay on benefits for the foreseeable, but of course most people will do some research.

If there were legal routes the boats would stop.

How would you meet the demand?

You'd have to be realistic re how many you'd provide this to

It staggers me you felt you had to ask if you'd misunderstood. How many people do you know who are married to their siblings? It's illegal in the UK and always has been.

Not everyone who wants to come will be able to do so via legal routes though.
Don’t you think that those who can’t might still choose the boats?

Live a week in a refugee camp and I'm sure we'd get it.

They possibly see the crossing as the least problematic part of their journey

You process them outside the UK, in France for those who are there, in other places for Afghans, Syrians or whatever. You publish criteria that need to be met including a genuine fear of persecution in their home country (obviously) and something further about a link to the UK. They'll have to give biometric data so it they're refused and subsequently arrive on a dinghy they'll be back lickety split.

It's got to be worth a try?

Given politicians including our own seem to be looking to get advice from Meloni I think we can rule out legal routes happening

They use pretty tough methods on land and at sea to get the numbers down

Although it's easier to do the former in Libya and Tunisia than France which would be our equivalent, plus will people really accept such an increase in drownings in the channel, not sure

They might do but if those who can come here legally have the means then there's a good reason to send those bypassing the system back.

I'm not saying it's easy, there'll be hard miles negotiating with France and other EU countries, but it's an option.

Your issue will be the number of people with a genuine fear of persecution will be high and it'll be hard to meet demand, especially if you remove some of the threat and people can apply from where they are

Do you think the people granted asylum now fit this criteria of genuine fear out of interest? The grant rate is high

Why not cross the border to another EU country then, instead of getting into a unseaworthy boat?
To be clear, I don’t think that nobody should come to the UK, or that Germany should take everyone or whatever.
I’m just wondering why, on an individual level, people are choosing those dinghies if other options are available.

It is extremely easy to work illegally in the UK. No ID cards, no real consequences for employers found to be employing workers illegally (just fines, which often go unpaid), no enforcement powers in local government and police (only HMRC and UKVI can investigate). If you suspect illegal working or NI/tax dodging and report it, likely nothing will happen as HMRC and UKVI are so over stretched.

In France, employing workers illegally (either because they have no right to work or because you are paying them cash in hand) can and does land you 3 years in jail.

If there were legal routes the boats would stop.

That's incredibly naive. Many won't be eligible for asylum or legal migration so of course they'll still come.

I think many people in the UK don't realise just how piss poor safety standards are in many countries. The boats won't seem as risky to people who are used to for instance waving their kids off to school unsecured on the back of pickup trucks, or who drive four to a moped without helmets in dangerous traffic on a regular basis.
Determination, sure, but it isn't necessarily desperation. They're not going to die in France.

I do also think the parents should be prosecuted for child endangerment.

Because people selling the route are persuasive about the safety
And thousands make it each year
Once you get to the UK you are ok
There was a webcam for a seller online posted here and they really do use all angles including what you'll have access to once here

There's a very good movie good The Swimmers (based on a true story) and the boat does sink, there are only a few who say no way. Plus people have paid a lot

It's probably feels like chaos in the moment

If you were familiar with genetic testing/counselling you would know it’s not as uncommon as you’d expect in some migrant communities.

If you're going to work legally in the UK you need ID. Lack of a formal ID card makes no difference. My passport has worked for the last 5 changes of employer one of which was TUPE and another returning to a place I left a few months earleir.

The issue is, as you say, lack of effective enforcement in industries like hospitality and catering where illegal employment is rife.

Because they have family/friends in the UK and/or speak some English. Those with family/friends in Germany head to Germany, those with family/friends in Spain (and speak some Spanish) head to Spain. Those who speak French (e.g. Congolese, Rwandans) head for France and Belgium.

The issue is, as you say, lack of effective enforcement in industries like hospitality and catering where illegal employment is rife.

There's a whole industry of people sub-letting their Uber Eats accounts for instance.

I think people are overstating the work documentation look at this from the Refugee Council. Most people will be here for asylum and then to work with that enabled. Many people who do not get asylum voluntarily leave, it is not easy

75% of initial decisions made in 2022 resulted in a grant of asylum or other form of protection