Pathological Demand Avoidance

[Felaku]

Hi a close relative has started seeing a man with this condition. I've never heard of it before and there doesn't seem to be much info on it.

He seems nice enough and I like him but he has a very poor work history and a bit too reliant on his parents. He's still at home at 30ish.

She's quite successful and has her own place.

Now I do not wish to bash or disrespect those suffering with this condition but I can imagine life could get problematic in a relationship if one of the partners has it.

Any experiences to share? It's not serious at the moment but it could get that way.

The thing is, no one can possibly tell you about this man. It will depend very much on the attitude and knowledge of the adults who have supported him growing up on whether he has the skills to help regulate himself, and insight into relationships.

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That with bells on!!

Jeez , he is going to be tricky to deal with and have a relationship with .
I know a few children with it and depending on how he was patented he will be a nightmare

I married someone with PDA. It was fine whilst we were young and in the early days and you could brush most things off as 'quirky' as he was also very loving and a kind soul. But things got HARD when careers and children were involved. I ended up doing everything, he couldn't hold down a job because he couldn't follow instructions and believed he was right, and wouldn't do anything around the house. He didn't do anything with DC unless his family or friends were around to praise him for his amazing parenting and then he became physically aggressive and social services gave me the ultimatum to leave him or they would be looking at removing the DC. I left completely frazzled and an absolute shell of the person I was. So my experience is not positive.

Hi OP, I would say everything depends on the severity of his PDA. If it’s mild and he has coping mechanisms then I would say he should be able to live fairly independently, it’s important to know how to work things though so it doesn’t come across as a demand or expectation.

I do have to say that some individuals with PDA do like to be in control and dislike “new ideas” or change so they can be quite inflexible, they like to do everything on their terms. It’s important to prepare them for change ahead of it happening and to ensure they are comfortable with it or offer reassurances so they don’t become anxious.
They may not be able to see a situation from someone else’s perspective, even if they understand it as a concept, for example my DD understands that it’s not ok for another person to hurt someone because they have asked someone to do something BUT she is unable to regulate her own emotional response and will lash out if given a demand. Obviously as PDA is associated to other ND conditions so certain behaviours are similar.

PDA can be severe and quite debilitating for some people, I do work with individuals who can become violent due to the anxiety their PDA causes them but they are some of the most severe cases of PDA that we have in our care, it’s highly difficult to motivate them into doing anything, even going outdoors, they also have very poor hygiene as again, it’s a demand or expectation.

One person who is highly intelligent and he will always try to turn a situation to suit his own needs even if it’s not what is beneficial to him and he will do anything he can think of to ensure he gets what he wants and not what others are demanding or expecting of him and does become easily frustrated when things don’t go as expected and he does understand how his PDA affect him with also causes a great deal of frustration, unfortunately that gets aimed at us. He is lovely but it’s hard work caring for him.

PDA also has a big impact on the individuals mental health and they may suffer from other conditions such as depression, low self esteem, OCD etc.

Although PDA has its challenges there’s nothing to say they won’t have a happy and healthy relationship, it really does depend on how well he can manage it and if she is happy to support him if he does struggle with anything.

I would like to think my own DD will grow up and find someone who is able to see what a brilliant person she is and someone who is willing to help her be the best she can be but also support her when she is struggling which is why I’m doing all I can as a parent to prepare her for adulthood.

I've name changed for this to make sure not identifiable to DC
My ex husband has ASD with a PDA profile. When I married him I knew he was diagnosed with Asperger's (am old term autism without intellectual impairment). After our divorce he received this diagnosis in his EU country.
My exh 's demand avoidance made it extremely difficult for him to progress in employment. Living with him was extremely stressful.
Unfortunately he was also a depressive and became addicted to alcohol.

I would be concerned that a 30 year old man with PDA would not be an ideal partner - as when the demands in life increase, their resistance also does.
I say this as mother of a DC with autism and we know several sweet children with PDA. Life with them is extremely challenging for their parents so would I be concerned - yes, definitely. It's a very hard life if she chooses it.
My ex husband could not cope with the demands of parenthood and abandoned our DC. They now live in supported living due to alcohol induced brain damage.

Oh and some individuals can have a strong opinions, they may argue over what they believe they are right or morally just vs what someone else may think, they can be incredibly head strong and stubborn and will not change their point of view, even if proven wrong they try to justify their own opinion and again can have a strong emotional reaction. I have also had a lot of experience with gaslighting, where individuals have denied doing something despite having witnesses and they will be adamant that we are all lying, again it’s pushing back against those expectations and it can be incredibly difficult for those individuals to admit wrong doing and apologise to others.

Ffs this thread is a bloody depressing read. My daughter has ASD with PDA profile.

it would really help if everyone understood more about PDA and reframed it as a nervous system disability, where individuals (through no fault of their own) perceive orders, requests etc an assault on their autonomy and can go into fight or flight mode, so the easiest thing to do is shut down and avoid requests.

with all of that in mind, let’s now go back and reframe it again as a communication challenge. If I ask my daughter to brush her teeth she won’t do it “because I’ve asked her to do it”, and that’s me asserting authority over her / taking away her autonomy.

Since I understand her PDA, instead of asking her to brush her teeth, I might say something like “would you mind checking that there are some clean towels in the bathroom while you’re brushing your teeth?”. And off she goes.

is this a pain in the backside? Yes. Does it take some time to consider how I communicate with my child? Yes. Does it make the relationship challenging? Yes. Am I worried about how she will engage in adult relationships? Yes.

However, all I can hope is that she meets someone who loves her enough to want to learn her language and communicate with her in a way which works for her.

she’s not a bad person; she’s just got a nervous system disability which affects how she gets through the day so seems overly stubborn.

she is also super intelligent, very sociable, in a mainstream school and doing really well.

sharing a PDA diagnosis can’t be easy, so the best thing to do is take some time to properly understand it and work out if this is something you can live with.

What's the difference between the two?

Although PDA has its challenges there’s nothing to say they won’t have a happy and healthy relationship,

@Susuwatariandkodama can I ask if you have seen a real life example of someone with PDA living in an harmonious marriage/partnership?

The reason why I’m asking is that this is what is commonly said about people with autism, but the people I met who have ‘harmonious marriage/relationship’ are either ‘together apart’ or are women on the spectrum (rather than men) or their partner has had to make huge compromises.

So I’ve always felt these ‘happy and healthy relationship’ as if it was like a ‘normal’ healthy relationship were a bit of a dream.

See too the huge number of people on the spectrum, let alone PDA, who can’t work, have severe MH issues, suicide levels etc…..

@GandTeaForMe the problem is there are some people who have gone through life without the correct support so their PDA is severe and not manageable.
We try every trick in the book with one of our clients and what might work one day won’t work the next and some days it’s just impossible and there is a lot of violence directed at us but again I work with individuals who have not had the right care so their behaviour is quite severe. It is a spectrum though and with the right support many with PDA will thrive.

My own DD has it and she is also doing very well in mainstream but it’s important to know what works well for each individual and how to apply those methods/adapt them to different situations.

There does seem to be a fair amount of negative experiences being shared here but PDA still isn’t properly recognised yet we have a large group of people who have been failed due to the lack of support and awareness around the condition.

I think my BIL has it.

In his 30s, mostly lived at home, failed stint in the Army. Multiple start/fail cycles with family and friends helping him into work, extremely stressful for all involved. Long-term unemployed.

Ideally he would sit in the house or garden all day, reading old books and watching old DVDs, basically avoiding any of the trappings of adult life. As long as he could eat and sleep, he wasn't bothered about much else.*

He was literally not bothered by what he wore, where he was clean, whether he paid board, whether he owned anything of monetary or sentimental value. Basically happy to bump along doing not very much at all.

He became increasingly verbally and physically aggressive over the years, eventually assaulting my PILs and worse.

I don't actually know if he was diagnosed with PDA but he definitely has a schizophrenia diagnosis, and depression. With the worst of his behaviour, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to be diagnosed a clinical psychopath.

It was the PDA that I first came across as the potential answer for his very challenging behaviours, possibly 10 years ago. All of the other diagnoses have followed.

Whilst I'm sure all people with PDA are different, he'd be an awful partner. He's a terrible brother and a bad son. Fortunately he's never had a partner or any DC that we know of.

He's actually quite charming and gentle when you meet him at first, but he couldn't be more manipulative. It's not that he says no, it's that he says yes, and then does the opposite in an unexpected way, that often has dire consequences for those around him. He's not lazy, he often goes to incredible lengths to avoid the thing he doesn't want to do. But because he has nothing... no stuff, no home now, no real relationships, he has nothing to lose in his eyes I'm sure.

• Had lots of substance issues though... cannabis, alcohol and eventually crystal meth.

It would be a no from me, PDA can be very, very difficult to live with, and he doesn't seem to live with it well. I wouldn't be dating him

I do know a couple who have a good relationship. They definitely had their challenges in the beginning whilst they worked it out.

My friend has years of experience with disabilities though so that is an advantage and she is brilliant at communicating, they have moved very slowly through each stage of their relationship.
Her partner has gotten a lot better at verbalising when he is struggling rather than just reacting emotionally. His PDA is manageable and they have coping mechanisms for when things get too much, like he may spend time with his parents for a weekend to reset or spend time on his hobby but my friend uses this time to focus on her own hobbies/visit friends etc.

She feels they have a nice balance but she has been fully committed when it comes to supporting him and figuring out any challenges that come up and he absolutely adores her and has been open to trying new approaches or self reflecting which isn’t easy to do.
They have only been together a few years now but so far it’s working.

I’ve been with my DH for 16 years and we are both ND, again it has its challenges but we are still going strong and make it work.

I genuinely believe it’s a mixture of the severity and how manageable a persons PDA/autism is and how well their partner can also manage/cope. Both people have to work well together and both have to want to work well together.

There are obviously some people whose lives are ruled by their disability and there’s still not enough awareness, training or support to help them.

@WorriedMama12

Difference is PDA means struggling with demands for things they want to do. If you think of a demand as a task it's easier. So getting washed and dressed to go to a much loved hobby may be too hard. Sabotaging things they love because they can't cope with the demand. And often a negative reaction to praise.

ODD I believe is different in that they can do the things they want the struggles mainly are with tasks they don't enjoy. Children with ODD respond to praise and reward and structure- all these things will make PDA person most anxious.

Thanks fir sharing your experience @Susuwatariandkodama

This is standing out to me

I genuinely believe it’s a mixture of the severity and how manageable a persons PDA/autism is and how well their partner can also manage/cope. Both people have to work well together and both have to want to work well together.

I think for us (with ex), it’s the lack of insight that has been a killer.
Without insight, there was no way we could work together in the way you describe.
And I agree if only one partner is doing all the work, it can’t work.

Overall then it seems to me that any long-term living together relationship would be a mistake. Maybe if he is pleasant enough, dating would be OK but frankly she is still youngish and looking for proper marriage

(I do not mean this disrespectfully but for people who are divorced/older with kids living together apart may be a viable option).

It's also possible that being of the age he is and not being able to live with his parents forever he may - not out of maliciousness but necessity-be after my relative as she has a house and money.

A replacement mother.

Besides which, as someone said upthread, even without PDA, he's not ideal partner material. No job, living at home at his age.

I don't mean this as an attack on him as a person but him in a relationship.

Felaku - is ‘she’ you?

See I can see that for him, my relative is a good option: confident, own place etc-able to do stuff he isn't.

It's easy to see that if a guy with PDA is charming and handsome, he can manipulate a woman who is into him (even if he doesn't feel the same) into living together.

Not out of malice but feeling there's no other way to be.

No. Someone close to me.
I don't like him to be honest. Totally full of unwarranted arrogance but I'm trying not to let that influence anything.

Oh dear, I hope your loved one is ok. Are you able to talk to her about it?

Not really. See I don't get the vibe that he's that into her but she's besotted by him and has been doing all the chasing.

I guess there's no talking her out of liking him.

i have recently read an interesting booklet about this.
i came away saying I have this, as the did the psychologist who wrote it!

does he have an actual diagnosis or just think he has it?

just be there for your dd op
keep an open mind

Yes it is.

sorry, confused @Felaku
just be supportive of your relative, not your dd