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Pathological Demand Avoidance

111 replies

Felaku · 02/08/2024 16:49

Hi a close relative has started seeing a man with this condition. I've never heard of it before and there doesn't seem to be much info on it.

He seems nice enough and I like him but he has a very poor work history and a bit too reliant on his parents. He's still at home at 30ish.

She's quite successful and has her own place.

Now I do not wish to bash or disrespect those suffering with this condition but I can imagine life could get problematic in a relationship if one of the partners has it.

Any experiences to share? It's not serious at the moment but it could get that way.

OP posts:
Lindy2 · 02/08/2024 17:51

My DD is autistic and has a PDA profile.

I love her, obviously, but in any other circumstances I wouldn't choose to be in a close relationship with someone with PDA.

It's very complicated. It's hard work. Life is very uncertain because you don't know what the PDA person can or can't cope with on any given day.

70% of children with PDA are unable to attend school. They simply can't cope with a lot of normal day to day life.

Does he also say he is autistic? PDA is a form of autism so he must be autistic if he is PDA. Is he officially diagnosed or self diagnosing?

VerasMacAndHat · 02/08/2024 17:52

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 17:48

Vera - I have first hand experience. The person I knew was violent and exceptionally challenging. I have NOT said all people with PDA are ‘scary’ but some are. It may be difficult to hear but sadly the traits of PDA aren’t ideal in a life partner. It isn’t wrong to acknowledge that.

I'm not refuting your experience.
I'm objecting to using that as a measure for someone else's potential relationship.

CountessWindyBottom · 02/08/2024 17:55

I think PDA aside, it doesn't really sound like their life choices are compatible. She sounds successful and like she has life together and he's living at home with his parents, with no meaningful career to speak of.

I mean surely it should be obvious to her that this isn't going to work irrespective of what mental health conditions he has.

Felaku · 02/08/2024 18:05

Well thanks for replies.
I can't address them all, but I have to say that if he can't be relied upon he would make a poor life partner.

I'm intrigued about why such a person would be controlling and manipulative, though.

OP posts:
twentysevendresses · 02/08/2024 18:07

I can only talk about my experience as a teacher...but I've taught 3 children in my time with diagnosed PDA. Each time the children ended up in an alternative provision as we simply couldn't accommodate them safely in our school (3 different schools). My experience was that as children, the PDA caused severe trauma for everyone involved (including the children and their families). I have posted on here before about this after my most recent experience, as I almost had a breakdown due to not getting any help from my head with the child. Eventually though, outside agencies stepped up and the child is now in an AP setting.

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 18:10

Vera - the OP asked for people’s experience’s , I gave mine, other’s have given those. OP can read the range of different experiences and start to build a picture. Do you think I should not have shared my experience?

VerasMacAndHat · 02/08/2024 18:10

PDA is much 'newer and it is not surprising that those individuals with most 'challenging' behaviour are somehow seen as the 'standard' . The reality is much more nuanced than that.
Childhood is often the most difficult phase of life for someone with PDA because they are subjected to overwhelming control by others.
Many may experience completely inappropriate parenting or behavioural approaches at school which cause damage and trauma.

I'm NOT minimising the complexity of the profile, I'm asking people not to 'demonise' it.

I've seen that happen so often. Myths like a PDAer says "no" to everything. Or will become a controlling and abusive adult. PDA Kids being written off in schools etc.

There are many factors that make relationships difficult and being autistic (including PDA) can be one of them.

I'm just asking people to stop being part of a process of writing off anyone on the basis of a diagnosis.

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 18:13

Vera - no one has written anyone off or said that all people with PDA are the same.

MounjaroUser · 02/08/2024 18:15

howaboutchocolate · 02/08/2024 17:21

Why? When you know nothing about it.

It just means their brain responds differently to demands (either requests from other people, or time related demands, or demands they place on themselves). In my experience it's a bit like having panic attacks around certain things, it's anxiety based. It doesn't mean somebody is lazy or scary 🙄

It can mean someone is scary, though. I knew a girl quite well who had it and she would terrify her little brother. At one point I thought she was going to break his arm - at another time I thought she was going to suffocate him. Too outing to go into details on here but it was very scary for him and for me.

VerasMacAndHat · 02/08/2024 18:16

@twentysevendresses I recognise what you describe.
Sadly the education powers that be are hell bent on squeezing all children into a mainstream mould. It fails everyone

Donotneedit · 02/08/2024 18:16

Felaku · 02/08/2024 18:05

Well thanks for replies.
I can't address them all, but I have to say that if he can't be relied upon he would make a poor life partner.

I'm intrigued about why such a person would be controlling and manipulative, though.

Because controlling and manipulative behaviour is probably always to some extent rooted in anxiety. pda is routed in anxiety leading to attempts to control, by saying no basically. I wonder if being controlling and manipulative is not a result of PDA but something which can co-occur
My son is also possibly PDA profile, if he can continue to gain self awareness about this as he grows up I have no doubt that he will not want to inflict unreasonable behaviour on other people because he’s a good kid. but yes it’s more work. Doesn’t have to be entirely negative, much like autism itself it’s a double edged sword and can be an advantage.
The idea that people with PDA profile are scary or have an increased risk of violence is, I think, bollocks, and really not helpful. If that’s wrong it needs backing up with evidence, not because someone knows one person like that. It is the very definition of prejudice to brand a group with that after knowing only one person like it.
PDA is recognised by nice I believe? It’s controversial and there’s definitely a lot of self diagnosis but it is formally recognised in the UK.
regardless, I would be very wary of getting involved with someone who has not got their shit together, no matter the reason. It does sound like your sis might be a little bit out of this blokes league.

Runnerduck34 · 02/08/2024 18:18

VerasMacAndHat · 02/08/2024 18:10

PDA is much 'newer and it is not surprising that those individuals with most 'challenging' behaviour are somehow seen as the 'standard' . The reality is much more nuanced than that.
Childhood is often the most difficult phase of life for someone with PDA because they are subjected to overwhelming control by others.
Many may experience completely inappropriate parenting or behavioural approaches at school which cause damage and trauma.

I'm NOT minimising the complexity of the profile, I'm asking people not to 'demonise' it.

I've seen that happen so often. Myths like a PDAer says "no" to everything. Or will become a controlling and abusive adult. PDA Kids being written off in schools etc.

There are many factors that make relationships difficult and being autistic (including PDA) can be one of them.

I'm just asking people to stop being part of a process of writing off anyone on the basis of a diagnosis.

Absolutely this!

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 18:22

The link from the National Autism Society is very clear. It does mention include aggression as one of the ‘noted forms of resistance’.

Donotneedit · 02/08/2024 18:22

By the way, I know a lovely kid who has really struggled with PDA and is now back in school excelling at GCSEs, her teachers not be aware of it. Very skilful parenting and some time out but she is now choosing to work hard and absolutely flourishing , and one of the loveliest kids I know. It’s not all doom and gloom

Trinity69 · 02/08/2024 18:22

Felaku · 02/08/2024 18:05

Well thanks for replies.
I can't address them all, but I have to say that if he can't be relied upon he would make a poor life partner.

I'm intrigued about why such a person would be controlling and manipulative, though.

My son has PDA and can appear to be incredibly controlling and manipulative BUT if you look under the surface it’s all anxiety that appears as manipulation. He will get me to do things for him that I know he CAN do for himself but at that particular moment, he can’t. I have had nights out where he has refused sleep and threatened to call the police to come and get me which appears controlling but is down to his anxiety and the need to know I am safe. It’s different when it’s your child though, my ex (my sons dad) was either PDA or just a controlling arsehole but it didn’t last.

imip · 02/08/2024 18:23

My d16 has PDA (obv undiagnosed and ‘just’ has an autism diagnosis). Up until covid, she was very very difficult. I struggled to see how she would be an adult, but I can see it now. She has a group of friends and can be a lot of fun. She was ‘ways’ of retaining control over things. And that’s mainly me, we have a difficult relationship. The umbilical cord is the ultimate sign of control!

I can see now how she would have a relationship and could manage. She manages at school because the control comes from else where. But she is very messy and has OCD. I also think she has hoarding disorder - this will impose the ultimate restrictions on her life and relationships. Like autism, PDA can look different for different people.

some prefer the term ‘pervasive drive for autonomy’.

Teaandtoastedbiscuits · 02/08/2024 18:26

I would wonder is sandy ankles confusing PDA with ODD as sometimes they can be mistaken for one another I have a parent and child with PDA and neither are manipulative

VerasMacAndHat · 02/08/2024 18:27

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 17:48

Vera - I have first hand experience. The person I knew was violent and exceptionally challenging. I have NOT said all people with PDA are ‘scary’ but some are. It may be difficult to hear but sadly the traits of PDA aren’t ideal in a life partner. It isn’t wrong to acknowledge that.

But the OP describes a an individual who is nice and she likes him! Not violent or controlling . But you came in with this post:

I’d be VERY concerned. I have met people with this who were literally ‘scary’.

Your implication was clearly that despite no hint of being "scary" you'd be VERY concerned just on the basis of his diagnosis!

Vroomfondleswaistcoat · 02/08/2024 18:34

I think everyone is assuming that your sister's partner is clinically diagnosed. Which is one thing. What I'd worry about is him not having a formal diagnosis and just calling himself PDA to explain extreme controlling tendencies. 'Oh, sorry darling, I didn't mean to call you a cunt, it's my PDA'.

Very different reactions to an actually diagnosed person, particularly if they are aware of techniques they can use to manage their own reactions, as opposed to a guy who just says 'yeah, I have PDA'.

Sandyankles · 02/08/2024 18:34

Vera- again, op asked for experiences, I shared. And yes I would be concerned about someone I cared for entering a relationship with someone with a complex issue. OP said it was early stages in the relationship. There are lots of other things I’d be wary of too. I deeply wish I’d been more wary of heavy drinkers myself.

Anewuser · 02/08/2024 18:35

My husband has asd with pda, although I didn’t know either when I met him.

Life is challenging but more so with pda. The word I generally think of is, procrastination. It’s not that he doesn’t want to do things or is lazy but more that he needs to analyse everything and then find a reason not to do it.

As a partner, I have to find a way to reword a request so he doesn’t think I’m asking him to do the task. It’s hard work and quite psychological.

I’ve also worked with a child with PDA and ODD, that’s even more hard work. You can never tell them to do anything, or even suggest something.

Meem321 · 02/08/2024 18:45

Felaku · 02/08/2024 18:05

Well thanks for replies.
I can't address them all, but I have to say that if he can't be relied upon he would make a poor life partner.

I'm intrigued about why such a person would be controlling and manipulative, though.

@Felaku I'm intrigued about why such a person would be controlling and manipulative, though.

Because PDA is anxiety driven and therefore there is a need to be in control. It's not out of spite. It's a need.

MtClair · 02/08/2024 18:48

My ex has PDA.
It’s extremely challenging to live with.
At the start of the relationship, he was masking and tbh it wasn’t so bad. He was coming across as quirky.
It became impossible for me to handle because anything you could ask was met with him being grumpy and things not happening.
Yes you can learn to ask for things in such a way that you don’t ask them but don’t minimise the effort that this requires on a day to day basis. That’s on the top of the ASD which is challenging in itself. Adding children in the mix made it all worse.

What helps is of the person has some insight and you can talk about it. My ex didn’t. So it was me making all the efforts, all the allowances until I couldn’t.

GivePeopleGrapes · 02/08/2024 18:53

My DS is PDA

He is helpful, caring, reliable. He does chores and looks after our large collection of pets, and he's a fully functioning member of the household. He is autistic and that shows up strongly in his social skills (he's very naive when people are taking the piss out of him for example - he'll get there probably, but he'll not catch up with his peers for a few years. He is developing those skills though)

His demand avoidance is mediated by anxiety, so the more stressed he is, he more he finds the internal demands of his body (eating, drinking, sleeping) frustrate him. He is aware that exercise helps his body and goes for walks everyday to get help keep him regulated. Direct orders are difficult for him and the most successful strategy is that he must be offered a true choice, with no backlash if his choice isn't what you want it to be.

He's adventurous with food, cooks family meals regularly and goes shopping for me. (He'll even remember the things that I want but haven't put on the list and gets the right brands - I've not managed to teach DP this in nearly 20 years). We home educate and he learns best when Intrinsic motivation is the driving force.

The thing is, no one can possibly tell you about this man. It will depend very much on the attitude and knowledge of the adults who have supported him growing up on whether he has the skills to help regulate himself, and insight into relationships. For example, my child isn't manipulative. He is very straight forward, very direct.

I enjoy my son's company, I'd choose to spend time with him - he's funny and often understands situations from a different point of view which I'm finding increasingly perceptive. He's 14 but he's a great kid who also has PDA.

Edited autocorrects which changed the meaning

MtClair · 02/08/2024 18:54

some prefer the term ‘pervasive drive for autonomy’.

I don’t like those terms.
It implies somehow that it’s a positive thing (no one ever said that wanting to have autonomy is a bad thing) and ignore the real challenges from PDA.
PDA is a disability, just like ASD.
It deeply affects people life and their functioning.

I think anyone who consider a life with someone with PDA or ASD should do so knowing they are considering life with someone who is disabled. Not everyone can cut it (saying that as someone who is disabled btw)

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