I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

[VivaLaSpag]

For transparency, I know absolutely nothing about horses but have seen this all blow up so am trying to understand the context and concern. In no way am I saying what she has done is right.

My question is, aren’t horses whipped to the finish line in horse races? If this is a routine practice then why is there such concern about what Dujardin has done?

No animal that has contact with humans (farm or pet) has any real choice over their lives.

Then why are their videos of cows choosing to go and be milked?

She didn't look out of control at all this is how she trains her horses. Every one of them. This is how she got her medals.
Does anyone who has seen dressage think they get the horses to do these fucking ridiculous and unnatural movements buy giving them a carrot and a pat on the head?

They are not unnatural movements! They're more refined as in they start and stop at the exact point you ask for
Ever seen a horse excited in the field, trotting in a passage? Or spinning on the spot or spooking sideways? They're doing dressage movements
The basics of dressage are in every horse - walk, trot, canter, halt

You don't need to beat a horse to train them to do that, you do it exactly the same way as you teach a dog to sit (which the dog would do already by itself)

I saw Dujardin win gold on Valegro in London 2012; it was stunning. I've read her autobiography. I genuinely thought she was one of the "good guys" in terms of horse welfare (believes in turnout and hacking which is unusual for elite dressage horses). There are going to be a lot of equestrians like me who feel let down and cheated, and depressed at the thought of how this is almost certainly going on elsewhere.

Welfare aside, what she did was just fucking stupid. If a horse doesn't understand what you want it to do, it's because your instructions were shit. Repeatedly smacking the horse on the legs is not going to magically make it know how to do the move you wanted. So she's thick as well as a bully.

Her career is surely over. I hope anyone paying for a lesson from a top pro asks for it to be filmed going forwards.

It really isn't. You can't make a horse do anything if it doesn't want to. Dressage done right is teamwork between horse and rider.

Your post is so disingenuous. They may be “natural” movements but without “training” the horses wouldn’t be doing those movements, in that order, in a ring whilst being judged.

It’s equivalent to circus taking an elephant or lion and should be banned. I’m so glad this video has shown millions of people how cruel this “sport” is.

They choose to get milked because their udders get really uncomfortable when they get too full of milk and they learn the routine. But their udders are only so full of milk because they're milked. A calf would be frequently suckling so they wouldn't get so full and uncomfortable and the milk production would naturally reduce as the calf was weaned.

@LizzieSiddal yes but they're not doing it from memory, the rider is asking the horse
If you ban dressage (which has been about since 350BC, then effectively you ban all riding
Nobody would ever be allowed to walk, trot and canter a horse in an arena so no lessons

There's been stuff like this in showing, showjumping etc and I haven't seen as much anger as at this

A basic level dressage test is simply walk, trot and halt. I use a dressage movement if my horse is spooky on the road by turning her quarters into the hedge. Or asking her to turn on the spot to open a gate

There does need to be a conversation and openness about training methods but ruining a sport.. it's like banning athletics because one person took drugs

I don’t buy it at all either. I was pretty shocked at her casually whipping the horse and I felt it was obviously suffering.

Sorry that's wrong. An oft quoted saying to excuse abuse.
Horses are herd and prey animals, they mask pain etc. That's why racehorses carry on running with broken legs etc.
As a horse owner and competitor for over 30 years I have seen the abuse from low level unaffiliated events through to national champs. Horses in draw reins, rollkur, bleeding sides due to spurs.
We need to change the narrative, call out abuse where we see it and not be afraid to challenge it. Whether that is obese showing ponies or blood. Stewards and officials need more teeth and statutory powers to stop people competing or to withdraw placings and winnings. There needs to be root and branch change across all horse sport.

I agree with you OP that horse racing is probably far worse than dressage and horses die in the Grand National all the time. Not of course that what CD did was in any way acceptable and of course she should be kicked off the team - but there doesn't seem to be the same furore every year over the deaths in the Grand National and that's shown live on ITV. In 2011 two horses died right on the track and the race didn't even stop.

www.peta.org.uk/issues/animals-not-use-entertainment/horse-racing/

Why is this 'sport' even allowed nowadays? Circus animals are rightfully not allowed anymore, but I'm not sure how this differs - training an animal (cruelly in many cases it seems) to do something that is not at all natural, in order to make money? Imagine if it were dogs - there would be a massive outcry.

Do you object to dog agility or obedience classes or sheepdog trials? Are you asking for them to be banned?

I don't condone what Charlotte has done, but what she did is not dressage training. It is abuse.

It is possible to train a horse for dressage without abuse.

The question is whether it is possible to regulate the sport sufficiently to prevent abuse when money and medals are involved.

Because horses and dogs are bred to enhance natural traits so they are fit for a job. Different horses serve different purposes, are you going to call for all horses to cease work? This will include heavy horses such as the endangered Suffolk Punch. I don't condone cruelty by any measure but by calling for a ban on something you need to think through what the end result will be. For racing and eventing this will make keeping the animals too expensive and the owners will then wonder to what reason should they keep these expensive money pits if they can't work them.

Regulation is the way forward, but it does seem that is in place already otherwise these riders wouldn't be facing these kinds of punishment. It seems to be a cultural shift is needed.

I don't know why the timing is relevant. Sabotage or not sabotage she would have been competing on a horse that had been abused to allow her to win the medal. Ideally this would have been uncovered previously but if the goal in life is to prevent abuse then the timing, whether suspicious or not, is irrelevant. Maybe another country will win the medals - but hopefully that will be on the basis of training that is not abusive.

billycat321 · Yesterday 10:36
Heard on Radio5 Live this morning that the video is about four years old and that it has been made public now by a Dutch lawyer. Why wait until now? The timing is very suspect, just a few days before the Olympics. I think it is an attempt to sabotage UK equestrian team's chances”

So? She still whipped a horse.

There does need to be a conversation and openness about training methods but ruining a sport.. it's like banning athletics because one person took drugs
It's not like that though. Athletes take drugs , they self administer they are not whipped to make them take them.
You can't compare the autonomy of a human being with that of a horse.

Dutch lawyer, is it maybe to take the spotlight off their own disgusting athlete?

Oh come off it. That's conspiracy bollocks.

This particular Dutch lawyer has specialised in equine law since 2002 and is passionate about horse welfare.

Not really conspiracy bollocks and I'm not saying this didn't need to come to light. But equally there is a convicted paedophile competing at the Olympics which has dropped out the news while this has replaced it.

Start your own thread on him then, it's got bugger all to do with CDJ

Hurlingnovice

Dutch lawyer, is it maybe to take the spotlight off their own disgusting athlete?

Are you denying her disgusting behaviour?

That athlete can speak for himself. That animal can’t. I don’t care what the motive is, though I think your suggestion is fantasy.

So a 14/15 year old filmed the abuse then sat on it until now because they wanted to take the spotlight off that athlete?

Right.

More simple truth is that the teenager understandably felt too intimidated to come forward, but now they are older feel able to.

No, you've just removed the rest of my post.