I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

[VivaLaSpag]

For transparency, I know absolutely nothing about horses but have seen this all blow up so am trying to understand the context and concern. In no way am I saying what she has done is right.

My question is, aren’t horses whipped to the finish line in horse races? If this is a routine practice then why is there such concern about what Dujardin has done?

How can Dutch people bear to have a convicted child rapist represent them in volleyball ?

It beggars belief.

Well, I'm Dutch and no, I can't. Anyone convicted of a sexual or violent offence should be permanently barred from representing their country in any kind of international sport. I hope the media attention will cause the NOC to change their minds.

I grew up with horses, did lots of training and lunging, admittedly not dressage but even so, and in 20+ years I never whipped my horses. Ever. I haven't seen the video, I don't want to, it would make me way too angry.

For the record I think crops should be banned in racing, even for waving and not hitting, horses run against each other naturally, if you need to hit your horse you are a shitty rider and an even worse human being.

Same with spurs in polo.

When this came to light she had just had a lot of publicity that she would become our greatest ever female Olympian of she got a medal in ParisThat could not be allowed in the face of this

I too hope the media attention will cause the NOC to change their minds @pointythings.
Is it getting much media attention in the Netherlands?

How come we have banned animals in circuses but this dressage nonsense is an Olympic sport - it’s no different! Pathetic

And this is the issues this has caused

It was hard enough before when people were sneering at dressage being a sport (it is, and it's not easy) and now it's going to be tough to convince people yet again that not all dressage riders are beating their horses and some horses do enjoy it

Here's a lovely one of a horse with no bit or saddle just before they go to the olympics

www.instagram.com/reel/C9u8kJsIVEM/?igsh=cnYwcnQxMnJ4YWlv

Lovely clip. And anyone who sees fear and coercion in this is wearing blinkers.

Spot on comment, although it did bring a tear.

Reminds me of DH Lawrence Women in Love. Can’t remember characters name who exerts control over his horse trembling with fear of the train to demonstrate his cruel and inflexible character.

In some equestrian yards it hasn't changed much since Victorian times when Anna Sewell wrote Black Beauty to highlight mistreatment of riding and carriage horses. Now we use them in competitions for entertainment. I was watching a show jumping competition at Wembley some years ago and saw a horrific accident. During the rounds, horses had to negotiate an unusual, difficult ramp. One horse fell, its leg snapped and it had to be euthanised in the arena.

Anna Sewell wrote that in 1877. It just shows how progressive we are doesn't it 😕. I've never taken much notice to dressage tbh (I don't really watch the Olympics, but certainly wouldn't watch something that involved any animal), but I can't abide people that bet on horse racing, my thoughts of them decline very quickly when I find out that they do.

I saw video, it was so horrid, god I wanted to grab whip and do it to her, you could see horse trying to get as close to wall as possible

How can you tell the horse is enjoying it? It's still got reins and a human riding it telling it what to do. I bet it doesn't dance about on its own in a field.

@howaboutchocolate they do
Watch horses play in a field, an excited horse will do extended trot, passage, piaffe, pirouettes
Yes it's got reins but to a head collar, there is no bit or bridle
Some horses genuinely enjoy having a job and working, you can tell. Some prefer hacking, some jumping, some dressage

I can't teach a cat to piaffe because it isn't a movement they do and there's no starting point. But you can teach a cat to sit easily because it's something they already do

How do people know dogs enjoy agility? Same thing...

Good.
It would be quite ineffective if the outcome was "oh well, I'll be missing a few competitions nobody cares about".
People and organisations which are strongly driven do not modify their behaviours unless they are missing more than they gain.
After all, she was not abusing the animal for the sake of it. She was abusing it to make it more fit to win.

look at the horse in the background in the too tight pessoa - who is behind the vertical even while standing still. Is that how the bay was trained too, I wonder?

That’s the problem isn’t it - we don’t look at what’s going on in the background, just at the shiny dancing horse in front of us, even when it’s right there in the video.

this video isn’t lovely, it’s an interesting metaphor for the whole thing.

I think this sport should be banned. Rather than teaching animals to dance, why not teach yourself. People can whip themselves or whatever way they think they train themselves to move in certain ways, don't control others.

I’m becoming convinced that there are some riders who can and do train their horses in a force free way so that the horse would enjoy performing these movements, but that those riders would never make it to the olympics. I don’t know if that horse is enjoying himself. I don’t think he is.

Look at the horse in the background. There’s coercion right there.

take your own blinkers off

@OneReformedCharacter I did see that but it also doesn't take away from the softness in the other horse

If I'm on a livery yard riding in an arena and film myself and it shows someone else behind me, their riding/training isn't reflective of how I ride/train. I could tell them it's wrong until I'm blue in the face but it doesn't mean they would change

I'm not agreeing everything at higher or even lower levels is good by any stretch, I'm just trying to point out that not every single dressage rider is forcing a horse to do something they don't want to do which is how it now appears to people who don't have horses/know dressage

You are correct
BD judges consistently reward tight horses.
At local BD level I've seen judges down score horses at Intro-Novice who are forwards, light etc because they aren't on the vertical. That's the problem, they train riders to think "heads down" is correct. I've seen horses working at Medium level who are on the forehand but because they are tight with heads down, they score highly.
Draw reins in warm up/lorry parks, riders wearing spurs when they haven't got control of their legs.

Alright. You see a someone putting some equipment on too tight and it’s going to cause harm to the horse. They won’t take your advice. Do you then continue to film that abuse and put it online in the background of your video because your horse is going well? No you don’t. If you didn’t see anything wrong with it then you might.

Also, she is an OLYMPIC RIDER. It appears she filmed it at home. She is probably the most well respected person on that yard. If she’s happy for that to happen behind her, in her video it indicates she doesn’t see a problem.

I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. In fact I’m going to assume her horse has probably had the same treatment

@OneReformedCharacter I get that

I just don't see anyone else on here sticking up for the fact that dressage can be done without abuse
I'll carry on riding as I am and everyone on here can fight about how we are all torturing horses and they should never be ridden and turned loose to live wild. Then be surprised when all the events go and riding schools cease to exist

I'm posting mostly for the not horse people who are horrified and saying dressage is a circus and riders should never ever carry a whip

Ah ok well I’m with you there - sorry I misunderstood your point a little. I just don’t think that particular video of the dressage rider riding bareback is helpful because yes, in that moment the horse looks quite relaxed, but judging by what’s going on in the background we can’t assume she is a force free trainer. To the unhorsey onlooker they can go oh that’s ok not everyone is mistreating their horses - but mistreatment is happening there in the background.

i recently got back into riding but I really had to think very carefully about it first because there are many more “give him a smack” people than there are those who use kinder methods. Those who do look for alternative ways are derided as “pony patters” which isn’t right.